View Full Version : "I didn't say it."
Son of Simon
12-23-2007, 03:05 PM
Matthew 15:7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.
I know. I hope our new POTUS has a pair and sends them all back tohell or wherever they came from.
I don't fail to see anything. What I do see is a bunch of whiney-@ss liberals hiding behind free speech as they slander MY country and MY president. They can say/challenge whatever they want. But when it gets personal and slanders my God/country/president, then I fight back.
I call 'em as I see 'em. People slandering my country/president during the war on terror are not only treasonist traitors, they are the scum of the earth.
Because they have a cause: defile America, her troops, and her patriotic people. They suck.
We should deport them to Iran.
Matthew 23:13 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
I've always appreciated the "Shoot To Kill" idea.
I also think landmines are a good option.
I don't care if they're citizens or not. They need to be deported back to hell or wherever they came from.
I agree. That, shoot-to-kill, alligators, ANYTHING to stop the invasion of the parasites.
Obama, Osama, Hussein... they're all the same. Evil muslimes. Ugh...
They should go the F back to hell or wherever they came from. They are NOT welcome here. Ugh.:
Matthew 6:5:
5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.
I go WAY out of my way to emphasize CHRISTmas--especially to liberals/atheists. It's FUN!
Matthew 23:15:
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war." -Ann Coulter
Matthew 22:18:
18But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me?
Demolish the ccr's? WTF? You on your death wishes again?
I thought threats/suggestions of personal violence were a cause for banning? Or is that just for CCRs?
Her true colors have come out before. This is not the first time. It just goes to show all that hypocritical love bs the liberals pretend to have. :rolleyes:
I know. I'm shocked and dismayed. From someone who preaches all about "love, love, love"....:moon:
Matthew 22: 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Who the hell cares what China says/thinks? They're a vile, power-hungry-at-ANY-cost POS evil government.
Ugh. These disgusting, revolting, repulsive freaks should move to France. Ugh.
I don't care. We should nuke them anyway for the sh!t they pulled in Iraq. Their sending their evil muslime terrorists over to help alQaida that was already in Iraq is unforgivable. They caused thousands of American troops to die. They should fry.
For those of you celebrating Christmas, my hope is that you remember what Christ was all about.
Happy Holidays!
-SoS
TaylorHicksRocks
12-23-2007, 03:16 PM
Great Post SoS!!!! I know the reason for the season! I don't feel the same as all those quotes that's for sure....
Matthew 15:7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
9They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.
Matthew 23:13 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
Matthew 6:5:
5"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.
Matthew 23:15:
15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
Matthew 22:18:
18But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me?
Matthew 22: 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
For those of you celebrating Christmas, my hope is that you remember what Christ was all about.
Happy Holidays!
-SoS
The message that Christ had for the world, that are to love others as we love ourselves, has been lost over the centuries.
It is a shame because of all the misconceptions of Christ has caused the world to go on a completely different path than what He wanted.
But then maybe I write too fast...... perhaps there is still hope, and maybe if people start to actually read what Christ said and not a certain writer who littered the new testament with writings, then maybe the world could do a quick turn around...... all things are possible in God and all I can say is 'Father Thy will be done.'
Son of Simon
12-26-2007, 04:01 PM
Some good points ktl.
Here's a question for you: It seems to me that Christ fought against the 'religiosity' of the church back in His time, but the new church founded in His name seems at least to attract the same kind of "stuff" He was so adamantly against. It sounds like you find Saul to be largely responsible for this, but don't you think that the people who canonized Saul's writings and teachings, had to feel that was the right direction for the church anyway?
I guess what I'm saying is- Jesus fought to get "religion" out of the faith, only to have humans reinstate and revitalize "religion" once He was gone. Is it because of one writer, or the hearts of people who *want* that sort of hypocritical legalism in their worship?
The Pharisees of Jesus' time wanted to wear their religion like a badge of reverence. They craved the empowerment, and entitlement that being legalistic provides, and that's why the confrontational "You're wrong, you're wrong" type Christians continue to dominate the "face" of the church, and its perception by the rest of mankind (myself included here). I personally find it a shame because I have known some really good Christians before, but they always seemed to be squelched by the "hater" kind.
I dunno...anyway, some stuff to consider.
-SoS
Some good points ktl.
Here's a question for you: It seems to me that Christ fought against the 'religiosity' of the church back in His time, but the new church founded in His name seems at least to attract the same kind of "stuff" He was so adamantly against. It sounds like you find Saul to be largely responsible for this, but don't you think that the people who canonized Saul's writings and teachings, had to feel that was the right direction for the church anyway?
I guess what I'm saying is- Jesus fought to get "religion" out of the faith, only to have humans reinstate and revitalize "religion" once He was gone. Is it because of one writer, or the hearts of people who *want* that sort of hypocritical legalism in their worship?
The Pharisees of Jesus' time wanted to wear their religion like a badge of reverence. They craved the empowerment, and entitlement that being legalistic provides, and that's why the confrontational "You're wrong, you're wrong" type Christians continue to dominate the "face" of the church, and its perception by the rest of mankind (myself included here). I personally find it a shame because I have known some really good Christians before, but they always seemed to be squelched by the "hater" kind.
I dunno...anyway, some stuff to consider.
-SoS
Most sermons are based on Pauls' writings and he contradicted Jesus.
He took out the kindness and charity orientation out of Chriistanity. He said we are not saved by works.. ie helping others- but by faith.... so christians do not have do anything but well, actually nothig but believe in Jesus.
But I don't think one can really believe in Jesus if they don't believe in His words... and 'He said he who fed my sheep, fed me' paraphrased -Matthew 25 31-40 but Paul took that out of Christianity.
The churches have actually stamped out Christ teachings in their sermon because He actually contradicts everything they want people to believe.
The churches want all money to be given to them. That is the reason, SOS, the churches have a real money making scheme in Jesus... they tell people to come to church to get saved, and give their money to them..... and not charity.
Maybe some churches are different.
And there are televangelists who used Christ make millions. All I can say is that it is a big shame that Christ has been used by so many.
If the churches said even a fraction of what Christ said, this world would be a completely different place.
TaylorHicksRocks
12-27-2007, 08:43 AM
Most sermons are based on Pauls' writings and he contradicted Jesus.
He took out the kindness and charity orientation out of Chriistanity. He said we are not saved by works.. ie helping others- but by faith.... so christians do not have do anything but well, actually nothig but believe in Jesus.
But I don't think one can really believe in Jesus if they don't believe in His words... and 'He said he who fed my sheep, fed me' paraphrased -Matthew 25 31-40 but Paul took that out of Christianity.
The churches have actually stamped out Christ teachings in their sermon because He actually contradicts everything they want people to believe.
The churches want all money to be given to them. That is the reason, SOS, the churches have a real money making scheme in Jesus... they tell people to come to church to get saved, and give their money to them..... and not charity.
Maybe some churches are different.
And there are televangelists who used Christ make millions. All I can say is that it is a big shame that Christ has been used by so many.
If the churches said even a fraction of what Christ said, this world would be a completely different place.
You got this right K! I won't watch a televangelist I will not support them in anyway.......I find it deplorable what they have done and said in the name of Christ!!! I support my local Church by giving them money and volunteering my time.....All the local Churches in our area support the local food pantry and both Jonathon and I volunteer their as well...I wish I could do more I will have to post the story of the local homeless man in our area.....
TaylorHicksRocks
12-27-2007, 08:50 AM
MAZOMANIE — It's the slow season for the mayor of the clothes-optional beach here, so Charlie Wise was not on duty Thursday morning. That's hardly surprising, considering naked recreation along a river bank is not a popular November pastime in Wisconsin.
But Wise, declared unofficial mayor of the popular nude beach in the late 1990s, is no longer living the dream.
Now it's a nightmare, and Wise has awakened to the reality of being cold, broke, depressed, jobless, mentally and physically ill, in child-support debt to two ex-wives, and heading into another winter while living in a 1989 Dodge van with a broken heater, down by the Wisconsin River.
It gets a little complicated after that.
"I guess I am at the end of my rope," the former lawyer said, describing a lot in life that is both familiar and unique.
That is why Charles H. Wise, 55, drove his van into Madison last week to, as he described, "sell myself."
He got a room at the Super 8, dry-cleaned his only suit snazzy, black, pinstriped — and shined his black wingtips. Only a few deep scabs remained on the side of his forehead from a decade-long skin affliction. So he presented a natty image, so long as he didn't open his mouth; his teeth and gums are a mess that he calculates would cost $8,000 to fix.
With his lanky, suited frame and trimmed beard and hair, he looked Lincolnesque, not like a man who had spent a good deal of the past 12 years naked, living in vehicles and tents and patrolling one of the Midwest's premier naturist destinations.
Wise drove to Mazomanie in 1996 following the dissolution of his second marriage and a dive into a deep depression, a bipolar disorder, that left him on disability and unable to continue as a lawyer in the Twin Cities.
"I found this nice beach and thought I would stick around about a year," he said, declining a cup of coffee as he chatted during a meeting at the Park Street Burger King.
"I didn't understand it was going to be a dead end."
He became a Wisconsin River beach bum, unofficial caretaker of the nude beach that draws naturists from near and far to the state wildlife refuge between Highway Y and the east side of the Wisconsin River north of Mazomanie.
"I was just living, nothing more," he said.
Life on 'Charlie's Island'
In the ensuing years, he not only became the de facto mayor — before the authorities cracked down, people would set up tents for the whole summer near the beach — but also had an island named after him. He spent a lot of time on Charlie's Island, which is actually a sandbar.
He picked up trash, kept some order, reminded people about the rules. He was arrested twice for smoking marijuana. He also retreated to that little island more and more as "all this physical stuff started taking a toll. I looked pretty scary, so I just kind of slid away from contact with people."
Allen Jacobs befriended Wise that first year and remains in intermittent contact.
"He developed a ghastly skin disease at that time," said Jacobs, of Green Bay. "He had open lesions all over his body, so he became further ostracized. He was pushed into a very peculiar state of not just homelessness, but was a walking bundle of disease."
Wise gets a disability payment of $866 monthly. After child support deductions, he is left with $299.60.
Jacobs describes his friend as a "phenomenal chess player" and "a law-abiding person, almost to the point of being puritanical."
Eric Flansburgh patrolled the Mazomanie refuge and beach this past summer for the Department of Natural Resources.
"He's an ordinary guy trying to enjoy his life," said Flansburgh, who talked with Wise on Charlie's Island regularly as he relaxed with a beach umbrella and lawn chair.
"He is one of the nicest guys I have ever met, would help anyone out who needed it," said Flansburgh.
Dealing with the cold
Dane County Sheriff's Deputy Todd Dosher, based in Mazomanie, has had regular contact with Wise for the past five years.
"Typically in the winter he takes off and goes to Florida, and he'll check back in with us when he gets back in the spring," Dosher said. "He has never been a problem for us, never asked for any assistance, a very intelligent, pleasant guy."
Wise fills his water jugs at a local store, buys gas at the Shell station and food at Wal-mart, "mostly noodles is what I can afford."
This year Wise has neither the vehicle nor the money to head south for the winter. He has spent a couple of winters in his vehicle in Wisconsin, and one autumn he tried to set up a tent, hoping to winter on his island.
"The DNR got into a panic and thought I would die on their property so they rousted me out of there," he said.
DNR warden and area supervisor Steve Colden saw that act as a rescue mission and noted he and others tried to get Wise help from different agencies. But Wise wasn't interested.
"He stayed out there all winter in his vehicle," said Colden. Because the refuge area is closed between 8 p.m. and 6 a.m., Wise had to leave every evening, Colden said.
"I think he has decided not to be a productive person in society," said Colden.
Promising start, then illness
Wise, who earned a bachelor's degree from St. Cloud State University and, in 1986, a law degree from William Mitchell College of Law in St. Paul, Minn., said he knows others may have that opinion of him.
"I have found that I can't change anyone's perception of how I run my life," said Wise.
After college, he worked as a commercial painter for a friend's company before starting law school. By the time he quit being a lawyer — his license was pulled in 1996 for non-payment and failure to keep up with education requirements — he had also acquired two former wives, a child from each, and had started a support group for lawyers dealing with depression. His way of dealing with it, ultimately, was to sit on a beach along the Wisconsin River.
He also, along the way, made a video journal of his time in Mazomanie, a collection of videotapes he hopes to edit into a program about his life there.
He has received some help from others, strangers, friends, family members. He says he has never contacted his former wives or their children, and they have never contacted him. (Efforts to reach his family in Minnesota were unsuccessful.)
"I know that's what people are thinking. 'Why doesn't Charlie just get up and get a job and get to it?'" he said.
"It's not that easy," he said. For a long time, he was in "blinding pain" because of the skin disease, which was examined but never diagnosed. He is also, despite prescription drugs and formal therapy and no small amount of respite, still clinically depressed.
"I'm in a spot where my vehicle gets 10 miles to the gallon, and the blower in my heater went out. Not a big deal to most people, but it is virtually life and death to me."
Ready for the 'next step'
He has a plan. He wants a lawyer to help him decrease the child support payments so he can afford a place to live. And he wants some money to get started. That's what the clean suit and wingtips and "selling himself" was all about last week.
Among those he met with was the Rev. Rob Nelson, an enthusiastic clergyman who leads the New Heights Lutheran Parish, which combines two churches in Mazomanie and Black Earth.
Wise has over the past few months popped up in the pews of the Mazomanie church, and he joined a 17-member mission last month to the Biloxi, Miss., area to provide hurricane-related help.
"He came with us and related well with the group, fit right in, he could tell and take jokes," said Nelson.
He believes part of Wise's problem is an inability to physically accomplish certain paperwork requirements that may lessen his financial burden. Legal help in Minnesota is under consideration.
"I think that because surviving has always been his immediate concern, it is very difficult to take that next step," said Nelson.
"Whatever it is he had to go through, it may finally be coming to an end. It needed to come to an end and he actually believes it is time for it to come to an end," said Nelson.
Charlie Wise can be contacted via mail in care of general delivery, Mazomanie, WI 53560.
http://www.madison.com/wsj/topstories/index.php?ntid=256857
TaylorHicksRocks
12-27-2007, 08:58 AM
Update on Charlie he has an apartment that was donated by a very nice man...We as a congregation are paying for his electric bill....He only has this apartment until April and he needs to see if he can find a job...It is difficult to find work when you reside in a van with no permanent address...Charlie is the only homeless person living in our area and I believe this has something to do with the fact that if you combine all of the Villages in a 10 mile radius you have less than 10,000 people.......
Don't agree that Paul contradicted Jesus. He was talking to a different group of people than Jesus. Jesus spoke primarily to Jews (with a few notable exceptions) where Saul/Paul went primarily into the Gentile world. And Paul did write some of the most notable writings on charity and love in the New Testament. Most people have probably had 1 Corinthians 13 read at their weddings.
I do think that many churches have twisted the writings of Paul and the teaching of Jesus. But just because people mishandle the message does not negate the truth of the message. It just means that we fallible humans continue to mess it up. Nothing new there.
You got this right K! I won't watch a televangelist I will not support them in anyway.......I find it deplorable what they have done and said in the name of Christ!!! I support my local Church by giving them money and volunteering my time.....All the local Churches in our area support the local food pantry and both Jonathon and I volunteer their as well...I wish I could do more I will have to post the story of the local homeless man in our area.....
You do what you can and Christ probably appreciates your good hearted nature.
Don't agree that Paul contradicted Jesus. He was talking to a different group of people than Jesus. Jesus spoke primarily to Jews (with a few notable exceptions) where Saul/Paul went primarily into the Gentile world. And Paul did write some of the most notable writings on charity and love in the New Testament. Most people have probably had 1 Corinthians 13 read at their weddings.
I do think that many churches have twisted the writings of Paul and the teaching of Jesus. But just because people mishandle the message does not negate the truth of the message. It just means that we fallible humans continue to mess it up. Nothing new there.
Paul said we saved not by works but by faith. I have heard that in many churches over and over again. Giving to the poor is not important.
And then there are practices that Christ would not approve of...... cutting off electricity because poor people cannot pay their bills..... foreclosures...... the charge that stores and banks both put on bounced checks....
If people that control those things were actually aware that these are things that Christ disapproves of, would they sit so smugly in the front rows of churches??
I do not think so after reading Mark 12-38-40
12-38- Beware of the scribes who like to walk around in long robes and like respectful greetings in the market places,
12-39 and chief seats in the synagogues and places of honor at banquets,
12-40 who devour widows' houses and for appearances sake offer long prayers, for these will receive greater condemnation.
Paul never mentions anything about that and that is why he is quoted 5 times as much as Christ in many of Christ's own churches.
Update on Charlie he has an apartment that was donated by a very nice man...We as a congregation are paying for his electric bill....He only has this apartment until April and he needs to see if he can find a job...It is difficult to find work when you reside in a van with no permanent address...Charlie is the only homeless person living in our area and I believe this has something to do with the fact that if you combine all of the Villages in a 10 mile radius you have less than 10,000 people.......
Charlie is lucky to be the only homeless person in such a kind hearted town. We have thousands of homeless people and very cold weather. They are always being run off if by the police whenever they establish a make shift camp site to keep them warm in the winter.
We have a few charities that try to help but they are a drop in the bucket.
Charlie will probably qualify for some kind of aid and can pay for his apartment and things that way.
Paul said we saved not by works but by faith. I have heard that in many churches over and over again. Giving to the poor is not important.
Paul is correct. It is faith alone that saves. But James fulfills the picture when he says that faith without works is dead. In other words, works are the external evidence of an internal change. Faith focuses on the heart while 'religion' focuses on the external 'works'. Doing good deeds doesn't get anyone into heaven. Faith does. But good deeds are an outgrowth of faith. Putting the deeds first is putting the cart before the horse.
And then there are practices that Christ would not approve of...... cutting off electricity because poor people cannot pay their bills..... foreclosures...... the charge that stores and banks both put on bounced checks....
Businesses don't practice Christianity, nor do they express faith. People do. Even in Christs days folks had to pay their bills or suffer the consequences. But it should be the people of faith that step in and help. Had Christians done what they were supposed to do, we'd never have had the many 'Great Society' programs we have in this country. But again, that's because people are messed up.
If people that control those things were actually aware that these are things that Christ disapproves of, would they sit so smugly in the front rows of churches??
.
Probably. Like I said, people are messed up (self included). We're always struggling trying to get it right. Many times we don't.
Paul is correct. It is faith alone that saves. But James fulfills the picture when he says that faith without works is dead. In other words, works are the external evidence of an internal change. Faith focuses on the heart while 'religion' focuses on the external 'works'. Doing good deeds doesn't get anyone into heaven. Faith does. But good deeds are an outgrowth of faith. Putting the deeds first is putting the cart before the horse.
Businesses don't practice Christianity, nor do they express faith. People do. Even in Christs days folks had to pay their bills or suffer the consequences. But it should be the people of faith that step in and help. Had Christians done what they were supposed to do, we'd never have had the many 'Great Society' programs we have in this country. But again, that's because people are messed up.
Probably. Like I said, people are messed up (self included). We're always struggling trying to get it right. Many times we don't.
I do not consider my self perfect either.
I think churches should at least inform people that Christ disapproves of certain practices even though they are legal under our law system. We should be christians 7 days a week and not just one hour on sundays.
churches have a responsibility in the promise they make to Christ that they will direct the people to do His will.
omitting cerain thing conveniently from their sermons has caused this world to become what it is.
I do agree with James 2 17 that faith without works is dead.
I do not consider my self perfect either.
Nor do I.
I think churches should at least inform people that Christ disapproves of certain practices even though they are legal under our law system. We should be christians 7 days a week and not just one hour on sundays.
And on this we're also in agreement. I always tell folks at my church that if we don't help one another then we may as well lay around the house in our underwear and watch football games all day. As James said, faith without works is dead.
churches have a responsibility in the promise they make to Christ that they will direct the people to do His will.
omitting cerain thing conveniently from their sermons has caused this world to become what it is.
I do agree with James 2 17 that faith without works is dead.
And even Jesus spoke about folks who give lip service to Him. And MANY (though by no means all) churches teach, but they don't teach what He taught. That's why I always encourage folks to read the book for themselves.
Nor do I.
And on this we're also in agreement. I always tell folks at my church that if we don't help one another then we may as well lay around the house in our underwear and watch football games all day. As James said, faith without works is dead.
And even Jesus spoke about folks who give lip service to Him. And MANY (though by no means all) churches teach, but they don't teach what He taught. That's why I always encourage folks to read the book for themselves.
I like to recommend Matthew 5 38-48.
You seem like a good person. :)
The message that Christ had for the world, that are to love others as we love ourselves, has been lost over the centuries.
It is a shame because of all the misconceptions of Christ has caused the world to go on a completely different path than what He wanted.
But then maybe I write too fast...... perhaps there is still hope, and maybe if people start to actually read what Christ said, then maybe the world could do a quick turn around...... all things are possible in God and all I can say is 'Father Thy will be done.'
I once heard a statement that I really agreed with. "If Christians the world over blew the dust off their Bibles at the same time, millions would die in the ensuing dust storm." Then again, many do read the Bible and can tell you the meaning of the words in the original language, but still miss the heart of the message. As Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13:
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
TaylorHicksRocks
12-27-2007, 04:02 PM
I once heard a statement that I really agreed with. "If Christians the world over blew the dust off their Bibles at the same time, millions would die in the ensuing dust storm." Then again, many do read the Bible and can tell you the meaning of the words in the original language, but still miss the heart of the message. As Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 13:
1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.
I love this it says everything that we should do and try to attain!
Son of Simon
12-27-2007, 10:09 PM
Hey folks,
A question for you all:
I think we can all agree that historically there have been people who have abused the name of Christ to perpetuate hate, prejudice, and various crimes of humanity. What is most concerning from the believer's perspective is how damaging this can be for someone hoping to help others find the faith.
Rallying against these things can be damaging as well, because one can come off as a "heretic" or simply judgmental against his Christian brothers, especially in light of the realization that we are all fallible and sinful, and should not "judge" one another.
So my question is: what is the Christian's responsibility with regards to harmful agendas perpetrated by the church?
-SoS
Hey folks,
A question for you all:
I think we can all agree that historically there have been people who have abused the name of Christ to perpetuate hate, prejudice, and various crimes of humanity. What is most concerning from the believer's perspective is how damaging this can be for someone hoping to help others find the faith.
Agreed. I think Jim and Tammy Faye did more to harm Christianity than any agnostic or Satan worshiper could. The Crusades as well, were a gross abuse of the "church". But the true work of the church is powerful. And where there is power, men will try to sieze it and use it for their own selfish aims. Where you have streets of gold, the greedy will attempt to steal the pavement.
Rallying against these things can be damaging as well, because one can come off as a "heretic" or simply judgmental against his Christian brothers, especially in light of the realization that we are all fallible and sinful, and should not "judge" one another.
So my question is: what is the Christian's responsibility with regards to harmful agendas perpetrated by the church?
-SoS
Good question. What we're supposed to do is to confront the 'heretic' in private. We're supposed to work things out in the presence of one or two witnesses (witnesses who have witnessed the error, not people brought in to witness the confrontation). If they refuse to correct their errors then the matter is to be taken before the congregation. That's the way church discipline is supposed to work. Unfortunately, it's rarely done that way. But this was the way it was done in the 1st century church. But since then we silly humans have created this heirarchy in the church. That has helped forestall church leaders going off into really bizzarro teachings. This happens because the 'congregation' feels the 'leaders' are in a position of superiority. But that isn't the way it's supposed to be. The 'leaders' in the modern follow-the-leader type churches seem to forget the lesson of Jesus washing His disciples feet. As we're supposed to try to become more like Christ, we should do like He did. He came to serve, not to be served.
But again, we shouldn't be shocked when people mess up what God has given us. We've been doing it from the beginning and haven't let up since.
Hey folks,
A question for you all:
I think we can all agree that historically there have been people who have abused the name of Christ to perpetuate hate, prejudice, and various crimes of humanity. What is most concerning from the believer's perspective is how damaging this can be for someone hoping to help others find the faith.
Rallying against these things can be damaging as well, because one can come off as a "heretic" or simply judgmental against his Christian brothers, especially in light of the realization that we are all fallible and sinful, and should not "judge" one another.
So my question is: what is the Christian's responsibility with regards to harmful agendas perpetrated by the church?
-SoS
The Indians were massacred on the basis that they were heathens. Jewish people have been subjected to years of abuse by christians, not just Hitler.
I tell people that there is nothing that Christ said to warrant any hatred or violence to anyone. The people who I have told this to, are grateful to hear this.
I think Christ would like the truth be known to people, that He did not say anyhing that would cause anyone to kill in His name.
Heresy is defined as against the church. The church had it all wrapped up so if one criticized the church for burning people at the stake, they could burn him as a heretic too.
Heresy is defined as against the church. The church had it all wrapped up so if one criticized the church for burning people at the stake, they could burn him as a heretic too.
Yes. And I really don't like my steak burned. :D
Oh, you said sta........................:11doh:
sandy
12-28-2007, 10:56 AM
Oh, I get it. I go out of town for a few days, come back and find a full-blown character assassination by a mod attacking/twisting my deepest beliefs. Is this just an attempt to get me ticked off and banned like kel? Or fed up and gone like Rush? What a sad, sad place this has become that allows a mod to mock a member on a public forum. But then again, that is the only way the liberals have to fight. The party of free speech gets rid of all who disagree with them. Pathetic.
Son of Simon
12-28-2007, 11:12 AM
I dunno sandy...all I did was post a bunch of quotes and a few verses of scripture. If the intent was to "out" anyone, the names would have been listed on the quotes. If I was "twisting" anything said- that would be extremely difficult considering I didn't say either the verses or quotes used. Hence, "I didn't say it."
I am simply pointing out the dichotomy of the modern "CCR" agenda, versus what is written in their Bible. You can choose to participate in the discussion as you please, and if you want to turn this into yet another "us versus them" thread, well that's fine too.
You can ignore the comparison and chalk it up to a "personal attack", but what was written is what was written. Again, I didn't say it.
-SoS
I dunno sandy...all I did was post a bunch of quotes and a few verses of scripture. If the intent was to "out" anyone, the names would have been listed on the quotes. If I was "twisting" anything said- that would be extremely difficult considering I didn't say either the verses or quotes used. Hence, "I didn't say it."
I am simply pointing out the dichotomy of the modern "CCR" agenda, versus what is written in their Bible. You can choose to participate in the discussion as you please, and if you want to turn this into yet another "us versus them" thread, well that's fine too.
You can ignore the comparison and chalk it up to a "personal attack", but what was written is what was written. Again, I didn't say it.
-SoS
What ever I have said was not meant to be a personal attack against anyone.
btw, I hoped that it would not snow yesterday when I had to go to work. They were predicting snow at 3pm yesterday but they changed the forecast and said it would not snow until after midnight! And that it is how it happened. I managed to go to work after all. This morning there was a lot of snow on the ground, my car, etc.
The Indians were massacred on the basis that they were heathens. Jewish people have been subjected to years of abuse by christians, not just Hitler.
I tell people that there is nothing that Christ said to warrant any hatred or violence to anyone. The people who I have told this to, are grateful to hear this.
I think Christ would like the truth be known to people, that He did not say anyhing that would cause anyone to kill in His name.
Heresy is defined as against the church. The church had it all wrapped up so if one criticized the church for burning people at the stake, they could burn him as a heretic too.
If some people take this as a personal attack, I am sorry.
sandy
12-28-2007, 01:45 PM
I dunno sandy...all I did was post a bunch of quotes and a few verses of scripture. If the intent was to "out" anyone, the names would have been listed on the quotes. If I was "twisting" anything said- that would be extremely difficult considering I didn't say either the verses or quotes used. Hence, "I didn't say it."
I am simply pointing out the dichotomy of the modern "CCR" agenda, versus what is written in their Bible. You can choose to participate in the discussion as you please, and if you want to turn this into yet another "us versus them" thread, well that's fine too.
You can ignore the comparison and chalk it up to a "personal attack", but what was written is what was written. Again, I didn't say it.
-SoS
I don't think so. It was a very poorly veiled attack. The names on the quotes would be mostly mine and you know it. You have something to say? Say it to me personally. The veiled attacks are weak. You're better than that.
The CCR agenda is: keep Americans safe, criminals out, God in, and get people to Heaven. You want to twist that? It's your free speech.
There is no more us vs. them. You banned kelly again and Rush chose to leave. I'm the only CCR left and I'm not in the mood to defend myself against attacks. It's CHRISTmas time....
And to ktl: I didn't consider what you said as a personal attack. You have usually had the courage to disagree with me directly. :)
sandy
12-28-2007, 01:48 PM
I hoped that it would not snow yesterday when I had to go to work. They were predicting snow at 3pm yesterday but they changed the forecast and said it would not snow until after midnight! And that it is how it happened. I managed to go to work after all. This morning there was a lot of snow on the ground, my car, etc.
I hear ya. I left 80 degrees in the sun/desert and came home to snow, snow, snow. I'm back in IL now and there's at least 6 inches blown and drifted in my driveway. :(
Why do we live here? :eek: :D
It really is pretty though. Huge flakes and very CHRISTmassy.
I hear ya. I left 80 degrees in the sun/desert and came home to snow, snow, snow. I'm back in IL now and there's at least 6 inches blown and drifted in my driveway. :(
Why do we live here? :eek: :D
It really is pretty though. Huge flakes and very CHRISTmassy.
I keep promising myself.... I will move where it is warmer, I will move where it is warmer... but at least it waited to snow after midnight last night!
sandy
12-28-2007, 01:57 PM
I know! I say that everytime I go back to CA. I should stay. The problem is the desert (where I like to stay) gets very hot (up to 120!) Malibu is nice but I get more work done in IL and DC. Malibu is too distracting. SOOOO beautiful!!
In light of the world affairs today I think a different picture of Christ should be presented to the world, even non christians. It would be well to tell muslims, etc, that Christ never ordered anyone to kill in His name. The muslims have probably that image of Christ.
TaylorHicksRocks
12-28-2007, 03:12 PM
The Indians were massacred on the basis that they were heathens. Jewish people have been subjected to years of abuse by christians, not just Hitler.
I tell people that there is nothing that Christ said to warrant any hatred or violence to anyone. The people who I have told this to, are grateful to hear this.
I think Christ would like the truth be known to people, that He did not say anyhing that would cause anyone to kill in His name.
Heresy is defined as against the church. The church had it all wrapped up so if one criticized the church for burning people at the stake, they could burn him as a heretic too.
Now the Muslim people are being persecuted by Christians not all of them but quite a few.....As for the Muslim's believing that killing in Christ's name I don't understand that everything I have read tells me that they hold Jesus in high regard and would not do such a thing.....although I could be wrong....and often am...Hehehe
I think that those Christians that do kill Muslim people are accused of doing so in Christ's name but they are killing out of ignorance or the war on terror.....My 2 cents worth....
sandy
12-28-2007, 03:28 PM
Where are Christians persecuting muslims? We are killing the enemy/terrorists (ALL muslims) in the war. But persecuting? Nope.
Muslims don't kill in Jesus' name. They kill for their god, Allah. They have no use for Christians. They call us "infidels" and say we and the Jews must die. :(
We're not killing very many muslims. Muslims are killing muslims.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/IraqBodyCount2006.htm
Son of Simon
12-28-2007, 03:43 PM
Where are Christians persecuting muslims?
Try Indonesia. Or even the Phillippines. Christians, Muslims, and Jews persecute one another all over the world.
And no, we don't openly kill Muslims on our own soil. But you should try talking with Muslims in parts of this country. Some of them feel they can't see the daylight, because of the prejudice this country has against them.
When I was in high school- half of my friends were muslim. They are great friends, and they were a hell of lot more peaceful than me. Yes- today there are horrible things being committed by muslim extremists. There are horrible things being carried out by Christian extremists. If all we did was polarize people based on Christian, Muslim, or Jew then we surrender the ability to understand one another. And even worse, we surrender the ability to stop needless bloodshed.
Right now- there are thousands of Muslim extremists who feel the same about you- that you do about them. Do you wish to keep perpetuating more wars, more violence, and more blind hatred?
-SoS
TaylorHicksRocks
12-28-2007, 03:46 PM
Try Indonesia. Or even the Phillippines. Christians, Muslims, and Jews persecute one another all over the world.
And no, we don't openly kill Muslims on our own soil. But you should try talking with Muslims in parts of this country. Some of them feel they can't see the daylight, because of the prejudice this country has against them.
When I was in high school- half of my friends were muslim. They are great friends, and they were a hell of lot more peaceful than me. Yes- today there are horrible things being committed by muslim extremists. There are horrible things being carried out by Christian extremists. If all we did was polarize people based on Christian, Muslim, or Jew then we surrender the ability to understand one another. And even worse, we surrender the ability to stop needless bloodshed.
Right now- there are thousands of Muslim extremists who feel the same about you- that you do about them. Do you wish to keep perpetuating more wars, more violence, and more blind hatred?
-SoS
Right on SoS!!!! I for one can only accept another for whatever it is he/she believes I will not perpetrate the hatred that so many in this country spew...Jesus does want us to Love all and not just a select few....
Son of Simon
12-28-2007, 03:49 PM
What ever I have said was not meant to be a personal attack against anyone.
Don't worry about it ktl. You said nothing to personally indict a member.
As for the quotes I posted, they were meant to ask a question- a pretty deep one, but I had a feeling it would be received that way.
-SoS
sandy
12-28-2007, 04:21 PM
Where are all the alledged "peaceful" muslims? I don't see any of them. The ones who claim to be peaceful are supporting terror-based orgs like *CAIR.:mad:
Why haven't they openly/loudly denounced 911? Because they believe in their Koran which tells them to convert/kill/destroy infidels (us). :mad:
I'm tired of them. I'm tired of their bs religion of death and destruction.:mad:
Bhuto claimed to be a peaceful one yet she sponsored the brutal ethnic cleansing campaign against the gentle Pandits, Kashmiri Hindus. :(
I willl do WHATEVER IT TAKES to rid the world of the filth that is evil muslime terrorism. My hatred for them is not blind. It is crystal clear and well-deserved.
http://www.cairbaby.com/
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Now the Muslim people are being persecuted by Christians not all of them but quite a few.....As for the Muslim's believing that killing in Christ's name I don't understand that everything I have read tells me that they hold Jesus in high regard and would not do such a thing.....although I could be wrong....and often am...Hehehe
I think that those Christians that do kill Muslim people are accused of doing so in Christ's name but they are killing out of ignorance or the war on terror.....My 2 cents worth....
Also christians have killing for centuries- indians- south america- europe- and it was not always just the non believers they killed - they killed plenty of people who they accused of being witches-first they would torture them beyond belief and then they burned them at the stake. History is filled with people being killed in Christ's name.
also, a mere hundred and twenty years ago, christians felt it was biblically all right to own slaves.
TaylorHicksRocks
12-28-2007, 06:46 PM
Where are all the alledged "peaceful" muslims? I don't see any of them. The ones who claim to be peaceful are supporting terror-based orgs like *CAIR.:mad:
Why haven't they openly/loudly denounced 911? Because they believe in their Koran which tells them to convert/kill/destroy infidels (us). :mad:
I'm tired of them. I'm tired of their bs religion of death and destruction.:mad:
Bhuto claimed to be a peaceful one yet she sponsored the brutal ethnic cleansing campaign against the gentle Pandits, Kashmiri Hindus. :(
I willl do WHATEVER IT TAKES to rid the world of the filth that is evil muslime terrorism. My hatred for them is not blind. It is crystal clear and well-deserved.
http://www.cairbaby.com/
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Look around their are peaceful Muslim's everywhere....Bhuto was a peaceful Muslim! I am willing to bet all those that are mourning her death are peaceful as well.....The man in Iraq who was the reason for Jessica's rescue is in fact a Muslim....I am certain there are thousands of people like him and we just don't know about them so I like to think the best about all of these people rather than the worst.....A few bad apples does not mean that everyone is rotten..
Matthew 19:19
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[a] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
This is perfect!!
Matthew 5
43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.'[B] 44But I tell you: Love your enemies[i] and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
TaylorHicksRocks
12-28-2007, 06:47 PM
Also christians have killing for centuries- indians- south america- europe- and it was not always just the non believers they killed - they killed plenty of people who they accused of being witches-first they would torture them beyond belief and then they burned them at the stake. History is filled with people being killed in Christ's name.
So true who can forget the Salem Witch Trials.....
Where are Christians persecuting muslims? We are killing the enemy/terrorists (ALL muslims) in the war. But persecuting? Nope.
Muslims don't kill in Jesus' name. They kill for their god, Allah. They have no use for Christians. They call us "infidels" and say we and the Jews must die. :(
We're not killing very many muslims. Muslims are killing muslims.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/IraqBodyCount2006.htm
Christians have not acted the way Christ wants us to. If all Christians acted the way Christ wants us to, then maybe the muslims would see that we worship a God that deserves worshipping.
A couple groups of christians that do not act how Christ wants us to are the kkk and the neo nazis.
sandy
12-28-2007, 09:44 PM
If all Christians acted the way Christ wants us to, then maybe the muslims would see that we worship a God that deserves worshipping.
It doesn't matter. The muslims don't care about how we worship. They care that we are infidels who must convert or die. :(
TaylorHicksRocks
12-29-2007, 07:44 AM
It doesn't matter. The muslims don't care about how we worship. They care that we are infidels who must convert or die. :(
There you go again lumping a group of people into a nice tidy little box.....It's just not that way!!!!!!!!!!!!! We are all different Christians are all different none of us all agree on everything....For example I disagree with you when you start talking about Muslim people....I see them as peaceful loving individuals...So who would you say is more accurate?
sandy
12-29-2007, 11:04 AM
Well, those "peaceful loving individuals" have committed 10,268 (!!!) DEADLY terror attacks since 911 all over the world. :(
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks
TaylorHicksRocks
12-29-2007, 04:20 PM
Well, those "peaceful loving individuals" have committed 10,268 (!!!) DEADLY terror attacks since 911 all over the world. :(
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html#Attacks
How many were committed in their countries and how many acts of terror have been committed in our country? Anytime a person is raped/murdered/or robbed isn't that an act of terror....Therefore as Americans we are more prone to terror than the Muslim people....Freaky isn't it.....
I know! I say that everytime I go back to CA. I should stay. The problem is the desert (where I like to stay) gets very hot (up to 120!) Malibu is nice but I get more work done in IL and DC. Malibu is too distracting. SOOOO beautiful!!
Hey, we have surfing in Texas too!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99P4Grmq8vA
Now the Muslim people are being persecuted by Christians not all of them but quite a few.....As for the Muslim's believing that killing in Christ's name I don't understand that everything I have read tells me that they hold Jesus in high regard and would not do such a thing.....although I could be wrong....and often am...Hehehe
I think that those Christians that do kill Muslim people are accused of doing so in Christ's name but they are killing out of ignorance or the war on terror.....My 2 cents worth....
Actually, there's a LOT of persecution of Christians going on today primarily in Muslim countries (See Voice of the Martyrs http://persecution.com/). And many use the Crusades as justification (Bin Laden frequently refers to the West as "the Crusaders") for their jihads. But that is just so much "you started it"...."NO! You did!" sort of argument.
The Crusades were actually a case of men taking upon themselves tasks that are reserved to God. Men decided that "the church" (which, in the days of the Crusades was actually just another nation state) had to take Jerusalem back for God. Uh, if He needed it, he's more than capable of taking it back for Himself without our help. But mankind has been trying to take the place of God ever since Adam ordered the forbidden fruit off the menu.
But as far as striking back at Muslims for persecuting Christians, that isn't what Christ called us to do. Remember He told us to bless those that curse us and pray for those who persecute us (See Luke 6:27 - 36 for example). So the "Christian" response is not to curse the Muslims, but to pray that they would come to experience the love that God intends for them to receive. However, as silly misguided humans we tend to want to do it our way, not His way.
sandy
12-31-2007, 07:59 AM
..Remember He told us to bless those that curse us and pray for those who persecute us (See Luke 6:27 - 36 for example). So the "Christian" response is not to curse the Muslims, but to pray that they would come to experience the love that God intends for them to receive. However, as silly misguided humans we tend to want to do it our way, not His way.
We do that. We also defend our country by trying to destroy alQaida. Evil muslime terror orgs are vile scum.
We do that. We also defend our country by trying to destroy alQaida. Evil muslime terror orgs are vile scum.
Nothing wrong with defending your country. Just keep in mind that we're all God's creations and none of us on our own are any less 'evil' than any other. At least, not compared to perfection anyway............
sandy
12-31-2007, 09:55 AM
You don't think terrorists are more evil?
You don't think terrorists are more evil?
With God, there are no 'rankings' of evil. That's a method we silly humans come up with to help us cope. So I guess it depends on who defines "evil". But we're all fallen creatures in need of help.
sandy
12-31-2007, 10:00 AM
Evil muslime terrorists want us all converted to Islam or killed. You do not think this grieves God more than the kid who stole the candy bar?
TaylorHicksRocks
12-31-2007, 10:25 AM
Actually, there's a LOT of persecution of Christians going on today primarily in Muslim countries (See Voice of the Martyrs http://persecution.com/). And many use the Crusades as justification (Bin Laden frequently refers to the West as "the Crusaders") for their jihads. But that is just so much "you started it"...."NO! You did!" sort of argument.
The Crusades were actually a case of men taking upon themselves tasks that are reserved to God. Men decided that "the church" (which, in the days of the Crusades was actually just another nation state) had to take Jerusalem back for God. Uh, if He needed it, he's more than capable of taking it back for Himself without our help. But mankind has been trying to take the place of God ever since Adam ordered the forbidden fruit off the menu.
But as far as striking back at Muslims for persecuting Christians, that isn't what Christ called us to do. Remember He told us to bless those that curse us and pray for those who persecute us (See Luke 6:27 - 36 for example). So the "Christian" response is not to curse the Muslims, but to pray that they would come to experience the love that God intends for them to receive. However, as silly misguided humans we tend to want to do it our way, not His way.
Which is why I Pray for those that are my enemies although I don't consider anyone to really be my enemy.....I Pray every night for anyone who doesn't know God as well as those who feel as if they are better than others and put themselves upon a pedestal because God wants us to be humble as well....
Matthew 5
44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you
Matthew 23
12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
James 4
10Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.
1 Peter 3
8Finally, all of you, live in harmony with one another; be sympathetic, love as brothers, be compassionate and humble.
1 Peter 5
5Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,
"God opposes the proud
but gives grace to the humble."
Evil muslime terrorists want us all converted to Islam or killed. You do not think this grieves God more than the kid who stole the candy bar?
We all grieve Him in our own ways. None of us is sufficiently 'good' to make it into heaven on our own. If it were, Christ did die in vain. Something I cannot believe.
TaylorHicksRocks
12-31-2007, 10:38 AM
Nothing wrong with defending your country. Just keep in mind that we're all God's creations and none of us on our own are any less 'evil' than any other. At least, not compared to perfection anyway............
Very well said X1!!!
Actually, there's a LOT of persecution of Christians going on today primarily in Muslim countries (See Voice of the Martyrs http://persecution.com/). And many use the Crusades as justification (Bin Laden frequently refers to the West as "the Crusaders") for their jihads. But that is just so much "you started it"...."NO! You did!" sort of argument.
The Crusades were actually a case of men taking upon themselves tasks that are reserved to God. Men decided that "the church" (which, in the days of the Crusades was actually just another nation state) had to take Jerusalem back for God. Uh, if He needed it, he's more than capable of taking it back for Himself without our help. But mankind has been trying to take the place of God ever since Adam ordered the forbidden fruit off the menu.
But as far as striking back at Muslims for persecuting Christians, that isn't what Christ called us to do. Remember He told us to bless those that curse us and pray for those who persecute us (See Luke 6:27 - 36 for example). So the "Christian" response is not to curse the Muslims, but to pray that they would come to experience the love that God intends for them to receive. However, as silly misguided humans we tend to want to do it our way, not His way.
Unfortunately, the muslims probably think the crusades were what Jesus wanted.
Unfortunately, the muslims probably think the crusades were what Jesus wanted.
Yep. But it was what the kings wanted. They basically told a lot of the under classes that if they'd go off and fight they could keep land in areas they helped conquer. So the kings rid their lands of the 'low lifes' and gained some new lands they could tax. A win-win for the kings at least. They went to take, Christ told us to give. So while this was called a Christian 'Crusade', it was truly nothing of the sort. They basically took a land grab and slapped a "Christian" label on it to sell it to the masses.
Regardless, Muslim, Christian, Jew, whatever.....we've each had our historical share of evil done in the name (and name only) of our creator.
Yep. But it was what the kings wanted. They basically told a lot of the under classes that if they'd go off and fight they could keep land in areas they helped conquer. So the kings rid their lands of the 'low lifes' and gained some new lands they could tax. A win-win for the kings at least. They went to take, Christ told us to give. So while this was called a Christian 'Crusade', it was truly nothing of the sort. They basically took a land grab and slapped a "Christian" label on it to sell it to the masses.
Regardless, Muslim, Christian, Jew, whatever.....we've each had our historical share of evil done in the name (and name only) of our creator.
The popes gave their blessings to the crusades.
There was plenty of conquests by the chosen people in the old testament. Christ said not to put the new wine into the old wine skins lest the skins burst and the wine is ruined- Matthew 9-17
We are living in the aftermath of 2 thousands years of disobeying Christ and combining the old testament with the teachings of Christ.
I can see what He meant by 'ruined wine.'
The popes gave their blessings to the crusades.
That's correct. But as I've said elsewhere, the 'church' in those days had about as much in common with the 1st century church as McDonalds does to fine cuisine. It was man's misuse of what God gave us.
There was plenty of conquests by the chosen people in the old testament. Christ said not to put the new wine into the old wine skins lest the skins burst and the wine is ruined- Matthew 9-17
We are living in the aftermath of 2 thousands years of disobeying Christ and combining the old testament with the teachings of Christ.
I can see what He meant by 'ruined wine.'
The conquests in the OT were for a specific time and place, not meant as an ongoing command. And you're right, the true Christian church has a new covenant and we're not commanded to a conquest of anything other than the hearts of people. Military conquest seeks to force change from the outside. Christ intends that we change our hearts first, and then our behaviour will follow as a natural consequence.
sandy
01-01-2008, 08:54 AM
...Regardless, Muslim, Christian, Jew, whatever.....we've each had our historical share of evil done in the name (and name only) of our creator.
The problem is the muslims have not stopped thier violence. They're still menaces all over the world:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
TaylorHicksRocks
01-01-2008, 12:33 PM
The problem is the muslims have not stopped thier violence. They're still menaces all over the world:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Christians are still a menace as well....At least according to Muslim's...After all we are still occupying one of their countries! Things do work both ways and we need to look at both sides of the coin.....
sandy
01-01-2008, 02:35 PM
Are you serious? How are we menaces? By freeing them from rape rooms, torture, and the vile regime of Saddam? By trying to get them saved/churched/to Heaven?:confused:
TaylorHicksRocks
01-01-2008, 03:02 PM
Are you serious? How are we menaces? By freeing them from rape rooms, torture, and the vile regime of Saddam? By trying to get them saved/churched/to Heaven?:confused:
We are not welcome in their country how would you feel if they came here and decided we needed to change our Beliefs? Yes Saddam is dead and we should no longer be there....for that matter we had no business going there in the first place! Bin Laden is not in Iraq!! Have we captured him yet no and it has been over 7 years......
sandy
01-01-2008, 06:49 PM
I give up. You just don't get it. You never will.
TaylorHicksRocks
01-01-2008, 06:51 PM
I give up. You just don't get it. You never will.
I don't believe it your giving up!!!!!!!!!
Now Sandra the problem is you don't get it you believe everything that Dumbya' has to say and he is a politician hence he lies!!!!!
Christians are still a menace as well....At least according to Muslim's...After all we are still occupying one of their countries! Things do work both ways and we need to look at both sides of the coin.....
Actually, the US went to war to assist not one, but two Muslim nations in the last decade. Bosnia, and Kuwait. And as far as the US "occupation" of Iraq, that's not exactly the case. The 'first' Gulf war did not actually end. There was no truce agreed to, only a cease fire. That cease fire was only valid if Iraq complied with the terms of the cease fire. Saddam didn't comply with the terms so the US resumed the conflict. In actuality, this is the conclusion of the war to drive Saddam out of Kuwait.
TaylorHicksRocks
01-02-2008, 12:44 PM
Actually, the US went to war to assist not one, but two Muslim nations in the last decade. Bosnia, and Kuwait. And as far as the US "occupation" of Iraq, that's not exactly the case. The 'first' Gulf war did not actually end. There was no truce agreed to, only a cease fire. That cease fire was only valid if Iraq complied with the terms of the cease fire. Saddam didn't comply with the terms so the US resumed the conflict. In actuality, this is the conclusion of the war to drive Saddam out of Kuwait.
But there were no weapons of mass destruction.....Dubya lied to us.
But there were no weapons of mass destruction.....Dubya lied to us.
Then so did WJC, Tony Blair, Madeline All-not-so-bright, and a multitude of others. This subject has been beat to death. Intel services the world over believed Iraq had WMD. But our buildup took so long they had plenty of time to diddy over the border to Syria with anything they had. Numerous investigations have yet to unearth anything suggesting W lied. I don't think he's managed the war well, but I don't think he lied.
TaylorHicksRocks
01-02-2008, 02:22 PM
Then so did WJC, Tony Blair, Madeline All-not-so-bright, and a multitude of others. This subject has been beat to death. Intel services the world over believed Iraq had WMD. But our buildup took so long they had plenty of time to diddy over the border to Syria with anything they had. Numerous investigations have yet to unearth anything suggesting W lied. I don't think he's managed the war well, but I don't think he lied.
I don't trust him.....Never did and never will. He is just another wealthy man who doesn't know anything about those who earn less money than his contemporaries...However I do believe getting Saddam was a good thing because he was torturing his people but it's time we left and brought our troops home.....way past time...
Underlying assumption for the war wasn't good. We expected that once Saddam was gone we could rebuild a few bombed out buildings and leave. The only reason a lot of violence hasn't taken place was because Saddam kept them under his thumb. And given he'd offed just about anyone who showed any leadership ability, a power vacuum was going to be an inevitable result. When there is a power vacuum, people will attempt to gain power by violence. It's just the way of things.
TaylorHicksRocks
01-02-2008, 02:34 PM
Underlying assumption for the war wasn't good. We expected that once Saddam was gone we could rebuild a few bombed out buildings and leave. The only reason a lot of violence hasn't taken place was because Saddam kept them under his thumb. And given he'd offed just about anyone who showed any leadership ability, a power vacuum was going to be an inevitable result. When there is a power vacuum, people will attempt to gain power by violence. It's just the way of things.
That's such a shame.....Too bad there is not anyone who could be the leader of Iraq and not be a tyrant.....
That's one thing about tyrants. There does tend to be a lack of violent dissent when they're in power. One reason they tend to get backing from the superpowers (on both sides). They tend to bring a modicum of stability. Until someone offs them and siezes power for themselves that is..................
TaylorHicksRocks
01-02-2008, 03:03 PM
Which is why our government ends up in bed with so many tyrants....
Which is why our government ends up in bed with so many tyrants....
Precisely. The US supported the Shah for years before we got all weepy eyed about the Savak. Now we have the Ayatollah's to deal with. The people in Iran aren't a whole lot better off now than when the Shah was in power. But I think the younger Palavi still holds onto this vain hope that he can some day regain the throne his father held. Don't see that happening though...........
TaylorHicksRocks
01-02-2008, 05:21 PM
Precisely. The US supported the Shah for years before we got all weepy eyed about the Savak. Now we have the Ayatollah's to deal with. The people in Iran aren't a whole lot better off now than when the Shah was in power. But I think the younger Palavi still holds onto this vain hope that he can some day regain the throne his father held. Don't see that happening though...........
I remember that I believe Dubya would like to invade Iran too...IMO he is just after the oil even though he really can't touch it......