Favorite Anti-Christian/Atheist Songs

[Kat4Ever]

Tori Amos - God

God, sometimes you just don't come through
God, sometimes you just don't come through
Do you need a woman to look after you
God, sometimes you just don't come through

You make pretty daisies, pretty daisies love
I gotta find what you're doing about things here
A few witches burning gets a little toasty here
I gotta find
Why you always go
When the wind blows

God, sometimes you just don't come through
God, sometimes you just don't come through
Do you need a woman to look after you
God, sometimes you just don't come through

Tell me you're crazy maybe then I'll understand
You got your 9 iron in the back seat just in case
You heard you've gone south
Well, baby, you love your new 4 wheel
I gotta find
Why you always go
When the wind blows

Will you even tell her
If you decide to make the sky fall
Will you even tell her
If you decide to make the sky fall

God, sometimes you just don't come through
God, sometimes you just don't come through
Do you need a woman to look after you
God, sometimes you just don't come through

[Kat4Ever]

Julie Ecklar - Hand of God

You stood simply regal, all shadow and ire,
More distance between us than that of the fire.
For difference is wrong and I'm different from you,
And you'll crush what you can't understand.
You've taught me that sheltered we're destined to stay;
You claim that it's right we should cower this way.
For Man must never question what Nature has planned.
You said it was all by God's Hand.

And we're all in the hands now of God-
From here on, mere mortals have failed.
No matter the cost or the cause,
The strength of the Lord must prevail.
He shows us the wrong and the right,
Forbids us to speak and forbids us to fight,
Protects us from Dangers aprowl through the night,
For we're all in the hands now of God, now of God, We're
all in the hands now of God.

We're just two-legged rabbits, hid safe underground,
Afraid to admit that we've long since been found.
If we ignore death, it just might go away
And leave us back where we began.
Just deny any questions outside a small range;
Feel safe all our lives, for our lives cannot change;
We'll be told if it matters that we understand,
And be led to the end by God's Hand.

For we're all in the hands now of God-
From here on, mere mortals have failed.
No matter the cost or the cause,
The strength of the Lord must prevail.
He shows us the wrong and the right,
Forbids us to speak and forbids us to fight,
Protects us from Dangers aprowl through the night,
For we're all in the hands now of God, now of God,
We're all in the hands now of God.

So behold here the triumph God's wisdom has won-
Behold here the damage that can't be undone!
Stagnation is good, and we're good to the core
While faith rots us like salt rots the land.
If your God helps the helpless, may He help you all well.
I am bound for the Outside to find my own hell.
If defiance means death, I would die before stand
Like a sheep to be thrown to God's Hand.

But we're all in the hands now of God-
From here on mere mortals have failed.
No matter the cost or the cause,
The strength of the Lord must prevail.
He shows us the wrong and the right,
Forbids us to speak and forbids us to fight.
But I'll no longer run from the sounds in the night.
Leave it all in the hands now of God, now of God.
We're all in the hands now of God.

[Kat4Ever]

Genesis - Jesus He Knows Me

You see the face on the TV screen
coming at you every Sunday
see that face on the billboard
that man is me

On the cover of the magazine
there's no question why I'm smiling
you buy a piece of paradise
you buy a piece of me

I'll get you everything you wanted
I'll get you everything you need
don't need to believe in hereafter
just believe in me

Cos Jesus he knows me
and he knows I'm right
I've been talking to Jesus all my life
oh yes he knows me
and he knows I'm right
and he's been telling me
everything is alright

I believe in the family
with my ever loving wife beside me
but she don't know about my girlfriend
or the man I met last night

Do you believe in God
cos that's what I'm selling
and if you wanna get to heaven
I'll see you right

You won't even have to leave your house
or get outta your chair
you don't even have to touch that dial
cos I'm everywhere

And Jesus he knows me
and he knows I'm right
I've been talking to Jesus all my life
oh yes he knows me
and he knows I'm right
well he's been telling me
everything's gonna be alright

Won't find me practising what I'm preaching
won't find me making no sacrifice
but I can get you a pocketful of miracles
if you promise to be good, try to be nice
God will take good care of you
just do as I say, don't do as I do

I'm counting my blessings,
I've found true happiness
cos I'm getting richer, day by day
you can find me in the phone book,
just call my toll free number
you can do it anyway you want
just do it right away

There'll be no doubt in your mind
you'll believe everything I'm saying
if you wanna get closer to him
get on your knees and start paying

Cos Jesus he knows me
and he knows I'm right
I've been talking to Jesus all my life
oh yes he knows me
and he knows I'm right
well he's been telling me
everything's gonna be alright, alright

Jesus he knows me
Jesus he knows me, you know...

[Kat4Ever]

Hate Squad - You are NOT my God

You are not my god
You are not my god

Stupid and sick minds
Try to direct my life
But that don't mean
I need to agree

You are not my god
You are not my god

I know that I am
And live in reality
Please don't tell me
What to do or to leave

Tell me jerks why should I care?
Your words are transparent lies!
I only must grow for myself
Experience my own view of life!

Why don't you leave me alone?
Are you wearin' a crown?
To direct me is not your job
You are not my god
You are not my god - Not your job!

You failed, that's the only thing that I know - for sure!

You are not my god
You are not my god

I know that I am
And live in reality
Please don't tell me
What to do or to leave

Tell me jerks why should I care?
Your words are transparent lies!
I only must grow for myself
Experience my own view of life!

Why don't you leave me alone?
Are you wearin' a crown?
To direct me is not your job
You are not my god

You are not my god

Not my god, not my god, not my god
Not my god, not my god, not my god
Not my god, not my god, not my god

[sandy]

Wow. I have never seen such angry/hateful lyrics. What sad, pathetic minds created those. I'm guessing atheists, satanists, pagans, alQaeda supporters, terrorists, etc...:(

[Kat4Ever]

Wow... what angry/hateful sick mind somehow linked atheism to terrorism?

[sandy]

Terrorism: is defined by the US Department of Defense as "the unlawful use of -- or threatened use of -- force or violence against individuals or property to coerce or intimidate governments or societies, often to achieve political, religious, or ideological objectives."

Sounds like atheism to me. Like when they want "God" off of everything.

I'm done with this discussion. The thread topic is repulsive and nauseating.

[frank]

For Kat4Ever's next thread topic he has decided to argue the positive merits of misunderstood dictators/tyrants of world history. After all, Kat says, "Hitler and Stalin had their redeeming qualities."

[TaylorHicksRocks]

For Kat4Ever's next thread topic he has decided to argue the positive merits of misunderstood dictators/tyrants of world history. After all, Kat says, "Hitler and Stalin had their redeeming qualities."


Oh my my Frankie as promised your Sarcasm is back!!! You are too funny!

[lizzyj]

I know through you previous posts months ago that you do believe in God. I think you are posting this stuff out of anger and the only people that will suffer are the ones that don't know God and are looking for answers. They will read your songs and could turn to atheism.

Think about that.

I'm sure thats not what you want, but it very well could happen.

[Kat4Ever]

I think you are posting this stuff out of anger and the only people that will suffer are the ones that don't know God and are looking for answers.

No Lizzy.. it was posted out of sarcasm and 'truth'.. there is a difference.

The 'truth' is that if someone feels they can on this site talk about and post a thread pertaining to the merits of 'God'... then someone else that doesn't believe as they do has the very same right to sit here and talk about Satan if they so choose.. and also to make a thread that pertains to songs about death and destruction or anything anti-Christian if they so chose.

The problem is that then.. as we've witnessed.. those that believe in God then take it as a slight and start talking about how that same person must be the devil... or misguided... or that they have no right... and that they should turn to God...

or make the idiotic post that atheists must be terrorists.

This is what I want people to think about... and what most of what I say pertains to.

But most of you just don't listen... or comprehend the world around you.

And please don't take that as me being mean... but just read the words and understand what I'm saying.

[Kat4Ever]

By the way.

Other than the 1 song by Genesis which I just did realize that I have heard... because I do like Phil Collins and that band (I wonder if it makes them 'bad' that they would have written and sung such a song???)...

I had never heard of any of those other bands.. or listen to that type of music...

I looked them all up on the internet on sites that pertained to 'anti-Christian' music.

I was sort of shocked how easy it was to do a search on something like that and have so many sites come up.

[lizzyj]

I still think you are doing it for the wrong reasons and souls could be lost because of your witness.

[Kat4Ever]

For Kat4Ever's next thread topic he has decided to argue the positive merits of misunderstood dictators/tyrants of world history.

I've searched and searched my heart and soul... and have tried everything I could to come up with a kind word for today's most genuine threat to the world.. and one of the world's most hated dictators of today...

Mr. George Bush.

And I just couldn't think of any.

[Kat4Ever]

Ya know honestly, Lizzy.. and you won't believe this...

but I genuinely like you.

We see the world differently.. and we butt heads because of that.. and other reasons...

but you're a good person.

Honestly.

And I believe you when you say you believe in God. And I believe you when you say you are a caring person.

And I chose to like that about you. I like people that care about people. I like people that care about the world around them.

I like people because of WHO they are.. not what they believe.

What I don't like is people that feel they have to force their beliefs on others.. or feel sorry for others because of what they believe.. or feel sorry for others because of what they may or may not have.. or those that are hypocritical in their beliefs.

And none of that was directed at you in particular.. just stating my position.

What I don't like is someone that takes something at face value without actually examining the facts.. or the reasons that something might be the way it is.. or that someone might say the things they do.

Someone that is so closed minded that things MUST be their way.. one way.. or it's just wrong.

The world always isn't black and white.. there are many grey areas.

There are many things wrong with it.. a lot of things that should be righted.

And it's people that will make those things right. Not some God in heaven that nobody can 'trust' to do things or make things right... because things aren't right down here.

So you can believe.. I can believe.. we all can believe..

but in the end it's our own actions that define us as a person.. as a people.

And it's our own actions that will make things better for the future.. or worse.

In this country and for the rest of the world as well.

[beautifultears24]

Wow. I have never seen such angry/hateful lyrics. What sad, pathetic minds created those. I'm guessing atheists, satanists, pagans, alQaeda supporters, terrorists, etc...:(

Because these artists dont believe in the same thing you do automatically you think they are terriosts. Hunny open your eyes! Not everyone who disagrees with you is a terrorists. I actually like some of these songs and it doesn't make me a terrorists or an alQaeda supporter. While this thread might sicken you, the one about favorite christian songs sickens me. Which is why I don't go there. So heres my advice to you. Don't visit this thread.

[sandy]

That anti-Bush rhetoric sounded just like the terrorists (al Qaeda et all...) They hate Bush too. Because they declared war on us 911 and he's the only one with any b@lls to do anything about it.

A true patriot may not agree with everything the president says or does, but he prays for him like the Bible says to do.

So now the atheist is also a treasonist/traitor. Why am I not surprised....:rolleyes:

[sadie]

Ya know honestly, Lizzy.. and you won't believe this...

but I genuinely like you.

We see the world differently.. and we butt heads because of that.. and other reasons...

but you're a good person.

Honestly.

.........Did my sweetie say this?.........Wow, I love you!!..... hehehehe

.........Could it be that my boyfriend and one of my online sis' are being a bit 'friendly'.......

[sadie]

I had never heard of any of those other bands.. or listen to that type of music...

I looked them all up on the internet on sites that pertained to 'anti-Christian' music.

I was sort of shocked how easy it was to do a search on something like that and have so many sites come up.

Ah, the internet.........you can find so much there......... :p

I won't beat this to death BUT for the record, I know K4E very well and he is not a terrorist nor a traitor......and its very unfair for someone to call him those things!!

He had his reasons for starting this thread...and it has nothing to do with terrorism nor being a traitor!!!! I am shocked that this turned to this.

(I know you can defend yourself, but you know me........thinking it, at some point...saying it hehehehe)

[Kat4Ever]

There is no response to Sandy.

She's dug her own grave with her idiotic remarks on this site.

Anybody that would link someone's words in a song to terrorism because they don't believe the same as she does... and then link atheism to terrorism... and then suggest that someone is a traitor because they have a different view of the world than the President.....

there is no counter for such arrogance and complete stupidity.

And that time I meant it just as I said it.

[sandy]

Atheism and terrorism were linked long before I was born. Intelligent people know that. Whiney anti-American traitor/treasonists don't.

When groups are violent, how much of their violence is directly caused by their religion – or by their irreligion? Alongside Hitler (who believed in no religion), Stalin and Mao were history's greatest mass murderers/terrorists, and they were atheists. Atheism is a violent ideology.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53890

[X1TX]

K4E, I think you forgot one. "Dear God" by XTC. But like the words or not, it is the cry of someone who's hurt and wondering 'where is God' as many of us have done/will do when we're going through a hurt. Even Job said some of the same things (except not believing in God). I've even heard a pastor use some of these lyrics for a sermon.

Dear god,
Hope you got the letter,
And I pray you can make it better down here.
I dont mean a big reduction in the price of beer,
But all the people that you made in your image,
See them starving on their feet,
cause they dont get enough to eat

From god,
I cant believe in you.

Dear god,
Sorry to disturb you,
But I feel that I should be heard loud and clear.
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears,
And all the people that you made in your image,
See them fighting in the street,
cause they cant make opinions meet,
About god,
I cant believe in you.

Did you make disease, and the diamond blue?
Did you make mankind after we made you?
And the devil too!

Dear god,
Dont know if you noticed,
But your name is on a lot of quotes in this book.
Us crazy humans wrote it, you should take a look,
And all the people that you made in your image,
Still believing that junk is true.
Well I know it aint and so do you,
Dear god,
I cant believe in,
I dont believe in,

I wont believe in heaven and hell.
No saints, no sinners,
No devil as well.
No pearly gates, no thorny crown.
Youre always letting us humans down.
The wars you bring, the babes you drown.
Those lost at sea and never found,
And its the same the whole world round.
The hurt I see helps to compound,
That the father, son and holy ghost,
Is just somebodys unholy hoax,
And if youre up there youll perceive,
That my hearts here upon my sleeve.
If theres one thing I dont believe in...

Its you,
Dear god.

[beautifultears24]

Atheism and terrorism were linked long before I was born. Intelligent people know that. Whiney anti-American traitor/treasonists don't.

When groups are violent, how much of their violence is directly caused by their religion – or by their irreligion? Alongside Hitler (who believed in no religion), Stalin and Mao were history's greatest mass murderers/terrorists, and they were atheists. Atheism is a violent ideology.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53890

Just because I listen to Tori Amos, Marilyn Manson, Ozzy Osborne, just to name a few doesn't mean that I am going to go to my job tomorrow with a gun and kill people. Just because the movies, music, videos games and books I like have violence in them doesn't mean I am a violent person. Wars and violence aren't just started by Atheism or the fact that people believe in something entirely different then you do. Wars and violence are created when their is radical beliefs.

Take for example the Salem Witch Trials. A brief walk down history might refreshen your memory here. Began back in 1692 in Salem Town, Mass. Led to the death of 20 people (most of whom were women) and imprisonments of over a 175 people. Now why? Not because these people were "witches". But because and I quote "Within the Puritan faith, one's soul was considered predestined from birth as to whether they had been chosen for Heaven or condemned for Hell, and they constantly searched for hints, assuming God's pleasure and displeasure could be read in such signs given in the visible world. The invisible world was inhabited by God and the angels—including the Devil, a fallen angel, and to Puritans this invisible world was as real to them as the visible one around them.

The patriarchal beliefs that Puritans held in the community further stressed the atmosphere: women should be totally subservient to men, that by nature a woman was more likely to enlist in the Devil's service than a man was, and that women were naturally lustful." (Wikipedia.com (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salem_witch_trials)) So now you got the Puritians who are stressed, overpopulated and bored going around screaming "Witch" or "Devil" every time something bad happened to them. Do you think these were works of the Devil himself? No! It was again radical beliefs.

Lets go farther back into history and look at the Crusades. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Crusade) the defintion of Crusade is and again I quote "One of a series of ostensibly religious campaigns by Christian forces from the 11th to the 13th century, mostly to capture the Holy Land from the Muslims who occupied it." Wait you mean to tell me Christians killed and started a war? Say it ain't so. Again to prove my point this is radical behavior. I am NOT going as far as saying all Christians will kill for their religion but their are radical behaviors that cause violence and wars.

If you take a look at all the religions and see how old they are you will learn that Christianity is one of the new kids on the block when it comes to religions. Christianity beliefs, holidays, traditions, teachings and views are not original or their own. Infact they are horribly modified, twisted, tangled up and meshed because priests needed a way to convert people to their new religion. The best way to change something (in this case, change beliefs) is to make it a smooth transition. They did this by taking the holidays/ holy days and their calender and twisting it. Keeping the dates and twisting their meanings. Not following? Ok Sunday, its the day of Sabbath and a day of rest but did you know that Sunday is actually a pagan day. It's a day to worship the Sun God and all his gifts to the land. Just like Christians worship their God for creating the world in seven days. It kept them somewhat comfortable because it was vaguely familiar to them.

Did you know that a pagan is defined as "Relating to local religions practiced before the introduction of Christianity. Many societies kept their pagan deities in the form of saints. Relating to a broad spectrum religious practices, generally lacking a strong hierarchical structure and emphasizing a personal relationship with natural forces and cycles. Celebrating the cross-quarter days is said to be an ancient pagan practice."

Oh no I speak of the Devil and the Old Gods I must be a witch. Actually I am not. I rasied Catholic all my life. Went to a Catholic school for 10 years, went to youth groups, bible studies all the way through college. What makes me different from most Christians is that I feel it is in my best interset to educate myself about others religions and their beliefs. I for one don't like to be ingnorate to their beliefs and try to respect others, which is something most Christians don't do because its their way or the high way. If I never opened my eyes to the world around me I would have never of met my best friend who is infact a Wiccan. She's one of the nicest, sweetest people in the world who has been more understanding and supportive then any Christian I have befriended in the past.

My point to all this radical behavior, beliefs and unwillingness to tolerate anothers religion or lack their of causes wars and violence. No one single group can wash their hands clean of violence.

"Whoever of you is without sin, let him throw the first stone" (Jn 3:7). Don't go throwing stones if your not sinless.

[X1TX]

This is turning from a discussion of music into one of religious differences. And the latest seems to try to correct one 'post-hoc' error with another.

Looking into the histories of several adolescent killers (Klebold/Harris - Littleton among others) found one common (musical) element. That was every one listened to Marilyn Manson music. This, though erroneous 'post-hoc ergo proctor hoc' thinking resulted in many believing that every kid that listened to Manson music was destined to pick up an AK-47 and trot off to a local school. The Manson music is at most one (among many potential) indicators of a potential violent outburst. I've never listened to Manson music as, from the genre it is in, I doubt it's my style.

Also, stating the Puritans were evil and killed the (alleged) witches in Salem due to Christian beliefs is another error of logic. They may have claimed to be 'Christian' but did not show other evidences of living a Christian life. The patriarchal beliefs they held were in no way supported by scripture, especially that in the New Testament. There is one verse (maybe two depending on which translation you look through) stating that wives should obey their husbands, but many more stating that the husband must love, honor, provide for, protect, and love his wife.

The Puritans had built their own belief system that was not supported en toto by scripture. They, like the 'church' that spawned the Crusades merely waved the Bible and picked and chose which scriptures fit their beliefs. While there is one verse in the Old Testament (which was written to the Israelites, it is Gods covenant with Israel, not with the Puritans) indicating death for witches, there are none in the New Testament (Gods covenant with us, including the Puritans).

As for the Crusades, this is often cast as a 'religious war'. In actuality, at that time the 'church' was a government unto itself. The kings of Europe (most notably France) used this as an opportunity to sieze lands. They promised the 'undesirables' that if they went to Israel and helped recapture the land that they could become land owners (about the only way to move out of the lower class, as there was almost no middle class at that time in history) once the conquering was accomplished. This helped the kings rid their kingdoms of a lot of peasants and to take the meager holdings they had. The kings obtained the backing of the 'church' under the guise of religion. It was all to do with land and political power. It was a wolf dressed up in sheeps clothing so the peasants would go along with the deal.

[Kat4Ever]

I'm curious then Sandy..... are Christians terrorists also then?

You're linking religious violence to terrorism...

Ever heard of the crusades? Or how about witch hunts?

And gosh I could just go on and on and on about violence and killing in the 'name of God'.. or the sins of the church...

but I have better things to do right now.

So that's just something to think about.

[Kat4Ever]

Atheism and terrorism were linked long before I was born.

Are you suggesting the terrorists are atheists because they don't believe in the same God as you?

Because they do happen to believe in a God.. just not yours.

Your logic is flawed.

[Kat4Ever]

Also, stating the Puritans were evil and killed the (alleged) witches in Salem due to Christian beliefs is another error of logic.

There were witch hunts going on all over Europe.. not just Salem, USA.

Reportedly more than 50,000 women were killed by the church over a period of many years.

And the crusades were as much about taking back the 'holy land' as anything else... it was a 'religious' war... one of many.

[X1TX]

Also, stating the Puritans were evil and killed the (alleged) witches in Salem due to Christian beliefs is another error of logic.

There were witch hunts going on all over Europe.. not just Salem, USA..

Granted. But the logic still applies. Just because people claim to be doing things "In the name of God" doesn't mean they're acting in accordance with the tenets of the religion.

Reportedly more than 50,000 women were killed by the church over a period of many years.

And the crusades were as much about taking back the 'holy land' as anything else... it was a 'religious' war... one of many.

Don't know where the '50,000' number came from, but I won't debate that. And yes, the Crusades were to take back the 'holy land'. As I said, it was all a land grab. They just used 'religion' to dress that pig so people would play along. At that time the people wouldn't have done it 'for the king'. But saying it was a religious war just confuses 'the church' (at that time) with Christianity. At that point in history the church had as much to do with Christianity as I do with classic ballet (and I'm by no means light on my feet nor graceful of step). Nothing in the Christian cannon would support the 'right' of the church to initiate such a war. Nor were they granted divine right to bless it. It was a group of powerful men who claimed rights from God (which they were not granted in the first place) and proceeded to fulfill their own desires. These are akin to the Pharisees that Jesus consistently railed against. If anyone had divine right it was Jesus. And he had the power to destroy the Romans and 'take back the holy land' for Israel. But He didn't do that. Yet men (for the purpose of political power) decided on their own to do what He declared (by the way He lived and died) didn't need to be done. So perhaps those who started the Crusades were religious. But they worshiped their own power and prestige, not the Christ they claimed to fight for.

But people do a lot of evil in 'the name of God'. Kim Jong Il believes he is god and has done a lot of evil by claiming divine right. Stalin killed millions in the name of 'humanism' (which is a religion, it claims to be so in the Humanist Manifesto). Even Jesus said His follwers would be killed by people claiming to be serving God. The Romans killed untold numbers claiming to be doing so by divine right. The 911 hijackers believed themselves to be fighting a 'holy war'. The song remains the same.

So people should read their Bibles (or whatever you use for guidance) for themselves lest they be led to do some evil in the name of doing something good.

[Kat4Ever]

Despite the fact that you make good arguements fundamentally you are wrong.

Granted sometimes people do things in the 'name' of religion when in fact they are not following doctrine... but who's doctrine are we talking about here?

If you followed the bible according to the 'letter' in which it was written... life would take on a whole new meaning.

You can't go back and rewrite history and say that the witch hunts (especially those conducted by people of the church in Europe) were not in the name of religion because you think it was wrong.. the simple fact was they were conducted by the church.. misguided obviously as they were.

You can't go back and say that all of the televangelists that have lied and mislead their congregation weren't acting in the name of God.. because whether or not 'they' were.. the people that followed them believed they were.

So who's to blame there? The televangelist? The congregation? Or God for allowing the lies and everything else to happen?

When Ted Haggard speaks out against homosexuality... and then probably is one himself.. who's to blame there? He's a religious man is he not?

When hundreds upon hundreds of cases are allegedly being brought against Catholic Priest misconduct... who is to blame? Is the 'religious' answer that they are only human? Granted they are not 'acting' on God's word.. but they are acting under his watchful eye, correct?

Let's not pretend that religion or hiding behind it makes you a better person... or shields you from wrongdoing... or that everyone that isn't religious is a terrorist... or that everyone that is religious is 'saintly'.

Plenty of wars and wrongdoings have been committed as a result of 'believing' in God.. and believing that what you believe is right and everyone else is wrong. Or have been done behind the 'shield' of being 'Godly'.

[X1TX]

Despite the fact that you make good arguements fundamentally you are wrong.

Granted sometimes people do things in the 'name' of religion when in fact they are not following doctrine... but who's doctrine are we talking about here?

Jesus, and the New Testament writers (as it pertains to people claiming to be acting in the name of Jesus).

If you followed the bible according to the 'letter' in which it was written... life would take on a whole new meaning.

On this we agree. But I would say it's more important to act in accordance with the intent rather than the letter.

You can't go back and rewrite history and say that the witch hunts (especially those conducted by people of the church in Europe) were not in the name of religion because you think it was wrong.. the simple fact was they were conducted by the church.. misguided obviously as they were.

I'm not saying it wasn't in the name of 'religion'. I'm saying it wasn't in accordance with Christianity. But that is the nature of humanity. We won't be perfect this side of eternity.

You can't go back and say that all of the televangelists that have lied and mislead their congregation weren't acting in the name of God.. because whether or not 'they' were.. the people that followed them believed they were.

They 'claim' to be acting in the name of God. Just because they claim it and some followers (who choose not to find out whether or not their claims hold water) believe it doesn't make it so. It just means the televangelists were better snake oil salesmen. If you know the character of the Bible and Christs teachings, at least 90% of the televangelists start to look like court jesters.

So who's to blame there? The televangelist? The congregation? Or God for allowing the lies and everything else to happen?

We will each have to answer to the Creator for what we have done. Each of us is responsible for our own conduct. God didn't create us as robots. We each have free will. We're free to do good and free to do evil. For the most part humanity as a whole chooses the latter.

When Ted Haggard speaks out against homosexuality... and then probably is one himself.. who's to blame there? He's a religious man is he not?

I don't know Ted nor have I ever met him. I'm not qualified to answer that. But again, he's a flawed human being just as myself.

When hundreds upon hundreds of cases are allegedly being brought against Catholic Priest misconduct... who is to blame? Is the 'religious' answer that they are only human? Granted they are not 'acting' on God's word.. but they are acting under his watchful eye, correct?

Let's not pretend that religion or hiding behind it makes you a better person... or shields you from wrongdoing... or that everyone that isn't religious is a terrorist... or that everyone that is religious is 'saintly'.

No pretense intended or implied. 'Hiding behind it' actually, in my mind, makes one a bit of a coward if one uses it to justify wronging or harming another (which is why I have such a personal disgust for the priests who have committed some of the acts to which you refer, as well as those that help conceal said acts). It denigrates the cross to do so. If you destroy another human you are destroying a creature that God himself sacrificed so much to save.

I've never claimed that anyone who isn't a believer is a terrorist nor have I claimed that those who are Christians are 'saintly'. I believe our standing before God is different. But I have the same potential to do evil as anyone else.

Plenty of wars and wrongdoings have been committed as a result of 'believing' in God.. and believing that what you believe is right and everyone else is wrong. Or have been done behind the 'shield' of being 'Godly'.

I don't believe I am 'right' and everyone else is 'wrong'. There is one who has it all 'right' and I am not Him. I don't know all the answers. I just follow the path I'm on. I do stray off it from time to time, but I have faith that God is patient enough with me that it will all be all right in the end.

[frank]

So it is true about that saying about discussing Sex, Politics, and RELIGION>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>So what did you think about the way John The Baptist sang "At the Copa"?

[X1TX]

So what did you think about the way John The Baptist sang "At the Copa"?

I tried to tell him "Hey dude, don't lose your head over it" but he just wouldn't listen...........


Ah, once again we're brought back to earth by Frank and his pix.....