A simple religious discussion

[Kat4Ever]

Not to rattle anyone's chain... so if you're opposed to talking about this subject just close your eyes.

But for a few of you 'fanatics' here that just want to argue about everything and prove how smart you are.....

I have an honest question for you.

I know we're not going to change anyone's mind here.. and I'm not trying to. I'm honestly just curious what kind of response you'll come up with.

So the question of the day (night.. whichever) is how do you explain the 'story' of Noah and his Ark.

Here's my questions:

First and foremost how do you suppose a simple carpenter that lived a few thousand years ago built such an intricate object as a boat that to this day would be at least FOUR times bigger than anything that modern technology has been able to create?

Second... how do you suppose he 'collected' at least two of EVERY single creature on Earth? Do you suppose the lions and tigers just walked up to the Ark smiling and walked inside without a second thought?

Third... You do realize that to feed the few hundred thousand creatures he would have on board it would have taken him literally all day long and then some?

Fourth... I wonder what that Ark smelled like since there was probably no way to get rid of all the crap... literally.

Fifth... Assuming that this actually happened and the Ark settled in one spot... how do you account for the fact that hundreds of animals are only found in one part of the world today... and how did they end up there.. ie Kangaroos, Pandas.. etc.. did they walk on water to settle where they are now?

Sixth... out of curiousity when God looked around the world that day he decided to 'kill' everyone... did he really only find one honest man and his family worthy of keeping alive? What about all the innocent children that hadn't had a chance to become good or evil? And if you're going to say 'they went to a better place'... then why not just take Noah also and forget an obviously failed experiment if you believe the story.

I'm looking for insightful and honest answers... NOT it's God's way.

Because if it was really, truly God's way.. why not just destroy the world and through some divine intervention just save Noah, his family and all the creatures of the world without going through some ridiculous 'go build me an Ark and collect creatures and then go out and repopulate the world' experiment.

So there you have it... question one... let's see who's brave enough out there to tackle it.

[RushDog]

First and foremost how do you suppose a simple carpenter that lived a few thousand years ago built such an intricate object as a boat that to this day would be at least FOUR times bigger than anything that modern technology has been able to create?

Second... how do you suppose he 'collected' at least two of EVERY single creature on Earth? Do you suppose the lions and tigers just walked up to the Ark smiling and walked inside without a second thought?

Third... You do realize that to feed the few hundred thousand creatures he would have on board it would have taken him literally all day long and then some?

Fourth... I wonder what that Ark smelled like since there was probably no way to get rid of all the crap... literally.

First of all, you have to remember that God's power is limitless. There are alot of stories in the Bible that seem far fetched, such as the parting of the Red Sea, Jonah surviving in the belly of a whale (although it really wasn't a whale, it was some type of big fish). Lazarus coming back to life. The list goes on. If you're one of those people that only believes in things you can see, and not of any type of spiritual force, you're not going to believe those stories. Noah built the Ark through God's power. He didn't do it on his own. There was a spiritual force behind it. There was also a spiritual force that made the animals behave. God provided enough food for the animals and the people on board. Yes, there was alot of animal $hit on board. They dumped it in the water. A good movie version to watch is the one made a few years ago with John Voight playing Noah. I'll have to answer the rest of your questions later. My brain isn't functioning to it's full potential right now.

[lucy]

I will regret this, without a doubt!!
BUT here goes nothin'

My religion is a personal issue. If I say something that someone else does not agree with.......forgive me. I assure you I do NOT want to convince you any other way than you already believe and am also willing to say... Oh' I didn't know.


Here's my questions:
First and foremost how do you suppose a simple carpenter that lived a few thousand years ago built such an intricate object as a boat that to this day would be at least FOUR times bigger than anything that modern technology has been able to create?
I do not think your statement is totally true, forgive me if I am wrong. I believe the arc was HUGE but the same ratio is used today........six times longer than wide.
The arc was known to be about 1 and 1/2 football fields and 4 stories high.
Are there no ships this size? I don't know.

Second... how do you suppose he 'collected' at least two of EVERY single creature on Earth? Do you suppose the lions and tigers just walked up to the Ark smiling and walked inside without a second thought? It is said that snakes used to be a somewhat upright animal, (before the apple) maybe the lions, tigers and bears were more like cattle at that time. BUT, the Bible does indicate God took care of this for the most part, leaving the building to Noah.

Third... You do realize that to feed the few hundred thousand creatures he would have on board it would have taken him literally all day long and then some?I would have to look this up, but I don't remember the issue of food. My thought is that there was some food and that God helped sustain them.

Fourth... I wonder what that Ark smelled like since there was probably no way to get rid of all the crap... literally.
Well, even with the first settlers..........they dumped it overboard. With so many animals though, you could never dump it all. Well the arc was huge but we don't know how many different sorts of animals there were at that time.

Fifth... Assuming that this actually happened and the Ark settled in one spot... how do you account for the fact that hundreds of animals are only found in one part of the world today... and how did they end up there.. ie Kangaroos, Pandas.. etc.. did they walk on water to settle where they are now?
We do not know the size of the area that was populated with other animals prior to the flood. Was the flood more of a "local event" or was it a "universal flood"? This we don't know...the bible speaks of destroying all inhabitants, by flood. I feel like Pandas and Kangaroos and many other animals came on the scene after the flood.



Sixth... out of curiousity when God looked around the world that day he decided to 'kill' everyone... did he really only find one honest man and his family worthy of keeping alive? What about all the innocent children that hadn't had a chance to become good or evil?
God said they were ALL evil, no elaboration is made on this in the bible.
And if you're going to say 'they went to a better place'... then why not just take Noah also and forget an obviously failed experiment if you believe the story.
I assume, as the bible indicates, God wanted Noah to replenish the earth with good. Why start over when Noah was a godly man. This was his way of starting over.
Don't forget this was before Jesus died on the cross. Salvation comes with Jesus Christ.

Because if it was really, truly God's way.. why not just destroy the world and through some divine intervention just save Noah, his family and all the creatures of the world without going through some ridiculous 'go build me an Ark and collect creatures and then go out and repopulate the world' experiment.
God wants his followers to be strong and obey him, by listening with their hearts not their heads. This story is still alive today........what a lesson for today.
That reason alone was worth the work Noah put into the arc.

So there you have it... question one... let's see who's brave enough out there to tackle it.
You scare me sometimes K4E, good luck with this one......I doubt it will last to 400.

[Kat4Ever]

I will regret this, without a doubt!!

Honestly, Lucy, truce... I did not start this to fight.

I did it to find answers... or at least was curious what sort of answers I would get from some people on here.

My friend and I (the one I've mentioned before had a discussion about this very topic about a week ago) and honestly he said this was one 'story' along with some others that Rush mentioned that he himself had a hard time believing... and despite the fact that he is VERY religious, he actually thinks that some of the stuff in the bible is probably very made up since it comes from man.

So I was just curious if anyone here would say the same thing.. or if you would just defend the bible no matter what.

I do not think your statement is totally true, forgive me if I am wrong. I believe the arc was HUGE but the same ratio is used today........six times longer than wide. The arc was known to be about 1 and 1/2 football fields and 4 stories high. Are there no ships this size? I don't know.

It was said to be at least 450' long.. and as far as how big on the inside the matter of much debate. However the largest wooden vessel ever made was in or around the turn of the 20th century and that was only about 350' long (and obviously considerably smaller than the Ark would have had to have been) and it was impossible to keep it afloat without metal beams.

So the only possible conclusion is that God intervened because it honestly was technologically impossible to not only build it (no way in those times it could have been done) but also to keep it afloat.

I would have to look this up, but I don't remember the issue of food. My thought is that there was some food and that God helped sustain them.

Unless I'm mistaken the Bible was very clear on saying that Noah was told to collect the animals and enough food and water to sustain them and his family.

Well the arc was huge but we don't know how many different sorts of animals there were at that time.

That statement confuses me, Lucy. Now you're talking about the possibility of evolution... because if there weren't as many animals back then as there are now... where did they come from?

Also how did they maintain any sort of diet for special needs creatures... or what about the weather? Did the penguins and polar bears not need it extremely cold, while other creatures extremely hot?

I feel like Pandas and Kangaroos and many other animals came on the scene after the flood.

So you're assuming they didn't exist before but were created by God after? Interesting.

You scare me sometimes K4E, good luck with this one

As do you Lucy.

You want the truth?

I respect you. I respect what you stand for and I respect that you don't back down.

Doesn't mean that I think you're right half the time (but a lot is just differences of opinion) and I think sometimes you open your mouth and spout out things just to argue about them without truly knowing sometimes what you're talking about... or you're just somewhat misinformed at times.

But I absolutely respect that you're willing to stand up for you 'friends' and willing to argue when you FEEL you're right.

I'd personally be more impressed if you took the time to be more sure of what you were talking about... because that would make you a force to be reckoned with because I think you have that talent within you.

[lizzyj]

I believe that true understanding comes when we get to heaven. There is alot of information in the bible that we the "human" reader can't conceive. Through faith and prayer God gives us the understanding that we need at that time.

Faith, is what religion is based on, either you believe or you don't. To only believe part, simply makes you an unbeliever. It's all or nothing.

I have been given understanding about a great deal of things but will NEVER try and convince anyone that I know everything about God. Because none of us do. I simply have the faith to know that he takes care of me and gives me what I need, spiritual and otherwise.

So to answer these questions, I don't think I can really, except ALL things are possible through God our Father, and through prayer you can receive the understanding you need.

[MusicLover]

See, I think this all boils down to what we Christians like to call "Faith"... Yes, we believe it because God commanded it to be written in the Bible, but most of all, I think, we have the mentality that "through God, all things are possible." While I believe it's a good thing to have a healthy curiosity about God's written Word, I don't sit around and question or second-guess. I take it for what it is and that's that. There is so much cynicism in the world today that it's nice to have something (the Bible) that is never-changing and pure. You may call me a fanatic if you wish. I don't take offense to that. I pray daily, I read my Bible daily, and I just thank God that he's made me who I am today, for all the little blessings and miracles He performs every single day, and most of all for my salvation. Isn't it wonderful to know that there is someone that will love you no matter what? Who will forgive you no matter what you've done? Who promises eternal life to those who believe in Him and accept His holy word? Who will be there to comfort you and give you strength and guidance 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? I think so. And to me, that's the greatest gift anyone could ever give me.

Ashley

PS - If you don't have a close, personal relationship with God, you're missing out on soooo much. Take this how you may, but God Bless You.

[X1TX]

I have an honest question for you.

So the question of the day (night.. whichever) is how do you explain the 'story' of Noah and his Ark.

Here's my questions:

First and foremost how do you suppose a simple carpenter that lived a few thousand years ago built such an intricate object as a boat that to this day would be at least FOUR times bigger than anything that modern technology has been able to create?

Bigger than an aircraft carrier or supertanker? No. But it is bigger than any wooden vessel built do date (as your later post clarifies). Supposition is that the vessel was built without a rigid keel. Basically, it used a keel in sections held together. It basically made the craft a large enclosed raft. There are some modern concepts out now that would involve a non-rigid keel. This would allow for a very long vessel. And it wasn't a 'boat' as we think of one today. The term 'ark' is basically referring to a large box. It likely didn't have a bow or stern. And don't forget, this vessel was over a hundred years in the making.

Second... how do you suppose he 'collected' at least two of EVERY single creature on Earth? Do you suppose the lions and tigers just walked up to the Ark smiling and walked inside without a second thought?

Don't know for sure. But in scripture it says (in Genesis 9, whis is after the flood) that "the fear of you and the terror of you will be on every beast of the earth and every bird of the sky..." So one would deduce from that statement that prior to this the animals weren't afraid of or skittish around humans before the flood.

Third... You do realize that to feed the few hundred thousand creatures he would have on board it would have taken him literally all day long and then some?

Probably so. Lot of work for so few folks.

Fourth... I wonder what that Ark smelled like since there was probably no way to get rid of all the crap... literally.

Given that a lot of it was likely swamped on the lower levels (reference the discussion on construction above) a lot of it likely fell to the lower levels and was washed overboard. But the water probably made other stuff grow that enhanced the aromatic experience. I doubt it was a pleasure cruise.

Fifth... Assuming that this actually happened and the Ark settled in one spot... how do you account for the fact that hundreds of animals are only found in one part of the world today... and how did they end up there.. ie Kangaroos, Pandas.. etc.. did they walk on water to settle where they are now?

No clear idea on that. I do have a few personal theories, but none based on fact or scripture. History is replete with people who don't know the answer attempting to provide one, then a huge misunderstanding grows from that. So I'll refrain from posting my 'guess' here.

Sixth... out of curiousity when God looked around the world that day he decided to 'kill' everyone... did he really only find one honest man and his family worthy of keeping alive? What about all the innocent children that hadn't had a chance to become good or evil? And if you're going to say 'they went to a better place'... then why not just take Noah also and forget an obviously failed experiment if you believe the story.

God didn't 'kill' all those folks. They were already dead anyway. What died was just their physical bodies. Where they spend their eternity is not up to the judgement of men, or whether they were 'good' or 'bad' people. Be they young or old when they passed to the next life, they will have to stand before God and it is His decision on where they spend eternity.

And why not just 'take Noah and forget an obviously failed experiment'? That goes back to Genesis 3. God still had the rest of the covenant to complete. We frail humans had to remain until His word was completed. The Genesis 3 covenant was realized in the person of Jesus Christ. So mankind could not end at that point in time.

I'm looking for insightful and honest answers... NOT it's God's way.

Because if it was really, truly God's way.. why not just destroy the world and through some divine intervention just save Noah, his family and all the creatures of the world without going through some ridiculous 'go build me an Ark and collect creatures and then go out and repopulate the world' experiment.

So there you have it... question one... let's see who's brave enough out there to tackle it.

Good question though. There are many similarities drawn between Jesus and Noah in scripture.

[Kat4Ever]

Good answers.

Honestly most of you have much more 'faith' than I do in something like this.

My religious beliefs differ greatly on a subject like this. While I believe or at least want to believe there is a better place I have a very hard time (well let's call it virtually impossible time) looking at this world and thinking there is a God above us that cares about what we do.

How can you look at famine and murders and grief over the lost of young loved ones that go way before their time... and honestly believe that 'God works in mysterious ways'... if that's the case I'd honestly rather think he works not at all.

I think that we live life here on Earth to prove ourselves worthy of going to 'Heaven' if you want to call it that... while God has no power over anything here on Earth.

It goes back to an earlier 'arguement' where I was vehemently opposed to someone, anyone acting happy about supposedly having a prayer answered... when the fact is that most people that pray never have them answered.

Personally I feel there are far too many inconsistencies in the Bible.. and stuff that obviously just couldn't happen without answering it in such a way to just say that 'God can do anything'.

The fact is that without 'faith'.. meaning absolute 'blind faith' that there is God... you don't have answers for most of what is in the Bible.

But it's always made me curious how someone finds or why they would find such faith.

It seems to me it's almost born of fear that you're told over and over again that if you don't follow a certain set of rules... or act a certain way... then you're going to Hell.

But... AND I'M NOT TRYING TO CAUSE A FIGHT OR START A FIGHT BECAUSE I LIKE AZTEC... ummmmmmmm.. isn't premarital sex against the Bible?

But Aztec is a good guy... so it's just another case of someone that 'believes' in God.. twisting scripture or his belief to do what he wants anyway.

I think a lot of people use God and the Bible as a crutch.. while quite honestly not really following 'God's way' except when it suits their purposes.

I find the whole circumstance very hypocritical... to believe when you want.. to twist the words when you want... to ask for forgiveness when you want.. and then continue to 'sin' as it were... no matter what the sin is.

I just don't have that faith. I'd prefer to be a good man and live my life in a way I feel is right.. and in the end whatever happens, happens.

If I don't 'accept' Jesus Christ as my savior and the end time comes... and God judges me poorly for that... then as far as I'm concerned since I've lived my life better than most Christians I know... then I wouldn't want to go to Heaven anyway if that's the type of God that God would be.

Sort of like why I'd want 'my' God to be the type that could let a father die, such as the case of Steve Irwin, when he's done so much good on Earth.

What is the reasoning behind that? How do you explain that?

"It's his time?" "God works in mysterious ways?" "Ours is not to question why?"

It just sickens me.

[lizzyj]

K4E,

I had stopped conversation with you due to the closing of threads and well frankly, you making me mad, but I feel the need to tell you something, so I will.

We all sin and come short of the glory of God. None of us are perfect, and make daily mistakes. It doesn't mean that we don't try, and strive to be better.

We will not be "sin free" or perfect until we get to heaven. Thats why salvation is important. Through the blood of Christ, we are cleansed and forgiven.

[RushDog]

When I get to Heaven, one of the first things I'll do is ask ol' Noah how he got 'er done.

[RushDog]

(Titus 3:9-11 NIV) But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. {10} Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. {11} You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

[lizzyj]

(Titus 3:9-11 NIV) But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless. {10} Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. {11} You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

Now that's stong, thank you rush.

Perfect scripture for me to hear.

[lucy]

truce...
:eek: .....:p


Unless I'm mistaken the Bible was very clear on saying that Noah was told to collect the animals and enough food and water to sustain them and his family.
No, the bible says...The animals went "in unto Noah into the arc". Gen 7:15
Noah's instructions were to bring them into the arc, to keep them alive.
As far as food, remember, in Gen 1:29 "I have given every green herb for meat."
I think this is what they all ate, Noah, his family and the animals.

Maybe this will help!!!!!! :p

[lucy]

When I get to Heaven, one of the first things I'll do is ask ol' Noah how he got 'er done.

Funnyyyyyy!!

[RushDog]

Since we're talking about religion, I have two questions for everybody.

1. Are you at a place in your spiritual life, where if you died today, you know for sure that you're going to Heaven?

2. If God asked you "Why should I let you into my Heaven?" What would you tell him?

[lucy]

Since we're talking about religion, I have two questions for everybody.

1. Are you at a place in your spiritual life, where if you died today, you know for sure that you're going to Heaven?

2. If God asked you "Why should I let you into my Heaven?" What would you tell him?


Yes.
I believe, as you told me, Jesus died and rose again to save me. I have asked Jesus to come into my heart.

[TaylorHicksRocks]

Before Noah was Adam and Eve.....How did they with 2 sons have grandchildren.....One has to have faith. have faith that God created everything and all will be answered when we go to Heaven. Their are a lot of things in the Bible that I don't understand but I know that God in his infinate wisdom knows what he is doing.:)

[RushDog]

But... AND I'M NOT TRYING TO CAUSE A FIGHT OR START A FIGHT BECAUSE I LIKE AZTEC... ummmmmmmm.. isn't premarital sex against the Bible?

But Aztec is a good guy... so it's just another case of someone that 'believes' in God.. twisting scripture or his belief to do what he wants anyway.

I'm sure Aztec really wanted to hear that right now.

I think a lot of people use God and the Bible as a crutch

What else are you going to use? drugs, alchohol, Dr. Phil? Oprah?

[RushDog]

Before Noah was Adam and Eve.....How did they with 2 sons have grandchildren.....

Adam and Eve had more than two sons. They had a third son named, Seth. They also had several other sons and daughters. Go into Genesis, Chapter 5, and it'll tell you.

[Kat4Ever]

1. Are you at a place in your spiritual life, where if you died today, you know for sure that you're going to Heaven?

2. If God asked you "Why should I let you into my Heaven?" What would you tell him?

1. Let me turn that around and ask you. How can you be so SURE there is actually a Heaven... I mean honestly. Faith aside (well actually it can't be faith aside because that's all you have... there is NO proof. It's impossible to prove so it is only faith.).

Also.. let's assume that you're a good person that hasn't taken Jesus Christ as your savior... let's assume you don't believe that he existed (I'm doing this for arguements purpose).. BUT you've lived yourself as good as any good Christian has... and let's say perhaps even better.

Are you saying that 'your' God is such a God that if a GOOD person came to the gates of Heaven, but he just hadn't accepted that God was true... that he would be turned away because of that fact?

If you say 'yes he would' then would you honestly want that God as 'your' God?

2. I'm confused as to why you'd be asked why you should be let in? If God is all knowing then either you're in or you're out according to what I assume you believe in. There should be no question.

[Kat4Ever]

Adam and Eve had more than two sons. They had a third son named, Seth. They also had several other sons and daughters. Go into Genesis, Chapter 5, and it'll tell you.

Yep, you gotta love that incest I suppose.

[Kat4Ever]

I'm sure Aztec really wanted to hear that right now.

I'm quite sure that Aztec knows what he's been doing and has accepted it for what it is.

But if you can't see that it IS being hypocritical (I NEVER said it was bad.. I did the same thing and I'm willing to bet you did also)... then you're just twisting it also.

That's my problem with religion and the people that follow it.

They ALWAYS use, "we're human and we sin" as a crutch.

It's as if it gives you the RIGHT to sin and do things that are against the bible when you want because you can always fall back on 'we can just ask for forgiveness'.

Somehow I honestly don't think that's the way it is supposed to go.

But I'm not the expert on the subject.

[AbsentElement]

I don't usually like to interject with my personal feelings and beliefs on religious and political matters in these forums. I enjoy discussing a variety of topics with most everyone here and I feel like I have a pretty good virtual relationship with most people here because of my self-imposed restrictions.

But, seeing as how I've already given some insight as to my political views, I see no compelling reason not to join in on this particlar conversation about religion. The fact is, I find the idea of religion fascinating, but I don't have the time to study it like I would like to.

I think K4E raises some very interesting questions, and I hope this thread can continue to move forward to help everyone gain some insight as to why people believe what they believe. I like (and am surprised by) the fact that, so far, this thread hasn't turned into a raging argument. That said, here goes...

I grew up becoming familiar with several different faiths. My mother often fluctuated in her beliefs and took me along for the ride. She briefly introduced me to the mormon faith when I was very young... really too young to understand anything about it. She also dabbled in the Bahai faith (I think she has gone back to this recently). But most of my memorable youth years were spent attending a United Methodist church. So my upbringing was primarily founded on Christian beliefs.

There were times in my youth when I felt very close to God and there were times when I didn't. I once had very strong faith and I was very active in church.

In my adult years (since about age 18), as I learned more about science and things that can be proven, I began to think about some of the very questions that K4E raises.

For instance, we KNOW that the continents, now separated, were once one single continent. Tectonic plate movements, continental geography, and plant and animal species exclusive to certain locations support this. This is the answer for K4E's question about how certain animals wound up only on some continents and not on others (i.e. kangaroos, koalas, pandas, etc.).

We know how earth, the other planets, the stars, and such were physically formed.

Evolution is certainly a valid scientific explanation for our existence.

But there are some things that even science doesn't explain (at least it doesn't yet). So, I'll pose a few here and let K4E (and everyone else) take a stab at them:

If the Big Bang theory is true, where did the pre-Big Bang matter come from? Science tells us that you cannot create or destroy matter, you can only displace it. So where was it before the Big Bang, and how did it get there? Someone must have put it there, no?

I get how babies are made, but how does the "life" get there? Is it like jumpstarting a dead battery? Is it some sort of electrical impulse that "sparks" life in an embryo? When the egg is fertilized, the "life" has to get in there somehow, no?

Why do we have emotions? Why do we (or at least most of us) have a moral compass that tells us what's right and what's wrong? For example, K4E mentions "you've lived yourself as good as any good Christian has... and let's say perhaps even better." What determines "good?" The Bible? If not the Bible, then what? Laws? What are our laws based on?

How does one explain the "feeling" of being close to God. As I mentioned before, I have experienced that feeling myself and know the feeling to be very real. I know the scientific reason for the feeling is that the mind convinces the body to express emotions (such as joy, regret, unworthiness, etc.) and biological reactions, but what convinces the mind?

I guess so far, I'm still convinced that God exists. Some would say science is slowly eliminating the "miracle" evidence that God exists. I beg to differ. I would say, so far, science has only given us insight as to how God may have accomplished some of the things he's done.

[AbsentElement]

If the Big Bang theory is true, where did the pre-Big Bang matter come from? Science tells us that you cannot create or destroy matter, you can only displace it. So where was it before the Big Bang, and how did it get there? Someone must have put it there, no?

Just to expand a bit on the theme of creation... My theory is that the story of the creation is not meant to be literal, at least in the sense of time that mankind has devised. Somewhere along the line, the pre-Big Bang matter had to be created. "It was always there" just doesn't work. Once it was created, perhaps the Big Bang was the "let there be light." Perhaps the separation of darkness and light came as the planets settled into orbits and revolutions. Perhaps the separation of land and sea (on earth) came about as the earth began to form life-sustaining properties and the creation of life in the sea, in the air, and on the land may have have occurred in the same order as described in the evolution theory. I guess what I'm saying is that I believe all of this had to be "created" or set into motion by something or someone, but I don't think it was done in the course of six "days" as we know "days" to be now.

What does everyone else think about this notion?

[AbsentElement]

Sorry, just to throw one more thing out there (and this relates a little better to the original post by K4E)... How does one truly believe that which he does not experience and know for himself (or herself) to be true? The only answer is faith. When you read something, anything (like the Bible, or some scientific research paper), how do you know for yourself it's true? If I tell you that you can create a soda geyser by dropping a stack of Mentos into a 2-liter of Diet Coke, would you believe me? Maybe, but until you experience it or witness it yourself, you'll not actually know the truth.

[Kat4Ever]

It's way too late for me to talk about the subjects that you've raised AE.... but I'm glad that someone else has tried.

I, like you, have spent a good portion of my life 'experiencing' different religions and trying to learn not only about them but about life as much as I could to understand 'where' people come from (meaing their philosophies on life.. not actual life itself).

I guess one question I would ask and have asked of myself and friends.... is that IF God does truly exist (as some here believe - meaning an ALL powerful, deity that can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants --- which would have to be true to believe half of what the Bible teaches) then why not show yourself? Why not 'prove' to people that you are as the Bible teaches. If you did that then you'd probably have more people that would follow your teachings.

Now, the first and most logical answer is that he did that with Jesus.. if you believe such things.

But my response to that would be that was allegedly over 2000 years ago... and he died.

See to me it all seems too simplistic. It just seems to simple that man can write about a deity... put all these laws in place... and then for centuries people can follow that (at least when they want to.. it's very convenient as I've said for someone to go to church on Sunday and be right back sinning on Monday.. and KNOWING what you are doing as well.. but still convince yourself you're a good person)... without any sort of logical proof.. other than your 'faith'.

IF God is as you want him to be.. why do you suppose he hasn't shown himself?

Do you feel he does that through 'miracles' or the answering of prayers? Then on the flip side how do you answer for all the bad that happens... the death of parents leaving young children to foster care for example.

It just seems to me that if God was all powerful and 'cared' about what happened here on Earth... other than perhaps being a 'proving' or 'testing' ground for admittance to Heaven.. that he'd do something to SHOW that he is THE GOD... and is a force to be reckoned with... and answered to.

[RushDog]

1. Let me turn that around and ask you. How can you be so SURE there is actually a Heaven... I mean honestly. Faith aside (well actually it can't be faith aside because that's all you have... there is NO proof. It's impossible to prove so it is only faith.).

Also.. let's assume that you're a good person that hasn't taken Jesus Christ as your savior... let's assume you don't believe that he existed (I'm doing this for arguements purpose).. BUT you've lived yourself as good as any good Christian has... and let's say perhaps even better.

Are you saying that 'your' God is such a God that if a GOOD person came to the gates of Heaven, but he just hadn't accepted that God was true... that he would be turned away because of that fact?

If you say 'yes he would' then would you honestly want that God as 'your' God?

2. I'm confused as to why you'd be asked why you should be let in? If God is all knowing then either you're in or you're out according to what I assume you believe in. There should be no question.


I have some very good news for you!

1. Heaven is a free gift
Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord."

It's not earned or deserved.
Ephesians 2:8-9 - "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast."

No amount of personal effort, good works, or religious deeds can earn a place in heaven for you because eternal life, like any genuine gift, is free.

Suppose your best friend were to surprise you with an expensive gift and let's suppose your response would be that of immediately digging into your wallet for a couple of bills to help pay for the gift. What an insult that would be. You must accept gifts freely. If you pay even a penny, it is no longer a gift.

It is the same with eternal life. This can be seen more clearly when we understand what Bible says about man.

Man is a sinner. Romans 3:23 - "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

First of all, you have to know what sin is. When we think of sin many times we think only of robbery, murder, adultery, etc. The Bible tells us that sin is anything that doesn't please God or is a transgression of His law. Anything we do that we shouldn't, like losing our temper or stealing -- these are sins of commission. Anything we should do but don't, like failing to pray or read the Bible or to truly love our neighbor -- these are sins of omission. There are not only sins in deed, but also sins in word and thought like lying, cursing, lust, pride, and hatred. The Bible says these are all sins.

Suppose I sinned only ten times a day, or even five, or even just three. Why, I would be practically a walking angel. Imagine if no more than three times a day did I think unkind thoughts, or lose my temper, or fail to do what I ought towards God and man -- I would be a pretty fine person, would I not?
Even if I were this good, I would still have over 1,000 transgressions a year. If I lived to be the age of 70, I would have 70,000 violations of the law of God on my record. Think what would happen to an habitual offender in a criminal court with 70,000 transgressions on his record. The judge would probably lock that person up and throw away the key. This shows that not only am I a sinner, but also that my sin is a very serious issue.

If I were to prepare an omelet with five good eggs and one rotten egg, I could not serve it to company and expect it to be acceptable.Even less can we serve up our lives to God, which may have many things in them that men would call good, and yet are filled with deeds and thoughts that are rotten, and expect them to be acceptable to God.If we want to get into heaven by our good works, then all we have to do is to be perfect

"But you are to be perfect, even as your father in Heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48

God's standard is complete obedience to Him in all things and at all times. Everbody falls short of this.Do you see now why it is impossible for anyone to get into heaven by their good works? This comes into sharper focus when we look at what the Bible says about God.

God is merciful - therefore does not want to punish us.
1 John 4:8b - "God is love."
However, God is also just, and must punish sin.
Exodus 34:7- "I will by no means clear the guilty"

That creates a dilemna. God solved this problem in the Person of Jesus Christ.

Who is Jesus Christ? He's the infinite God-Man.

John 1:1,14 - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the One and Only, Who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

What He did - He died on the cross and rose from the dead to pay the penalty for our sins and to purchase a place in heaven for us.

Let's imagine that this book in my right hand is a minutely detailed account of my life. Each page details the sin of a particular day -- every word I have spoken, every thought that ever crossed my mind, every deed I've ever done that falls short of God's perfection.

Here then is the problem -- my sin. God loves me,but He hates my sin and must punish it.

To solve this problem, He sent His Son into the world.

Isaiah 53:6 - "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all."

All of my sin which God hates has been placed on Jesus Christ. Finally, when the last sin had been paid for, Jesus said, "It is finished!" This is an interesting word in the original text. It is TETELESTAI, a commercial word which means, "It is paid; the debt is paid." When He died, He was buried in a grave for three days, but He rose from the dead and went to heaven to prepare a place for you and me. Now He offers heaven -- eternal life -- to you and me as a gift. This gift is received by faith.

Faith is the key that opens the door to heaven. I have key ring that has many keys. Some even look somewhat alike. Yet, when I go to unlock my front door tonight, I could try all of these keys except the right one and I could not unlock the door. It does not matter how sincere I am in exercising my belief that a different key will open the door. The fact is that only the right key will open the door.

The right key to heaven is saving faith. Before we talk about saving faith -- the only key that will open heaven's door -- I want to talk about two other keys that people often think will open the door to heaven. These keys are head knowledge and temporal faith.

Many people know certain historical facts about Jesus. They believe in Jesus the same way they believe in Napoleon or George Washington. They believe He actually existed. They believe He was a real person in history, but they are not trusting Him to do anything for them now.

James 2:19 - "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that -- and shudder."

So believing in God's existence is not what the Bible means by saving faith.

Temporal faith is another thing that people often mistake for saving faith. When a person trusts in the Lord for finances, you could call that financial-faith. A person may pray and trust the Lord to take care of his family. You could call this family-faith. Many have prayed for a safe trip. You could call that traveling-faith. There is one thing that all of these have in common. They are temporary. For instance, once you reach your destination, you don't need to trust the Lord for traveling-faith.
All the things of this world will pass away. They are temporary. But saving faith is trusting in Jesus Christ alone for eternal life.

Now, what is saving faith? It's trusting in Jesus Christ alone for eternal life.

Acts 16:31 - "Believe (trust) in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"

Faith is the hand of a beggar reaching out to accept the gift of a king. 20 years ago, I reached out an unworthy hand and received the gift of eternal life. I didn't deserve it then and I don't deserve it now. But I have it by grace. Why, then, should I try to live a good life? The reason for living a godly life is gratitude for this gift of eternal life. I'm not trying to gain something I don't have by my efforts to be good. Rather, I'm saying, "Thank you, Lord." The motive for Christian living is gratitude for the gift of eternal life.

I don't know if this makes any sense to you. The bottom line is, it's impossible to get into Heaven through personal merit. Being a good guy or girl isn't going to get you into Heaven. Now, you should try to live a good life out of gratitude for being saved. That's where works comes into play. People do things for the church because it's out of gratitude for being saved. Everybody screws up a few times in their life (Even K4E). But, if you trust in Jesus Christ alone for eternal life, God will let you into his Heaven. That's all I'm going to say about it. I'm not going to answer any off the wall questions about Noah's Ark, and why people die early. Being an expert on Noah's Ark, and how they fed the animals, is not going get me into Heaven. It's pretty much just nice to know information. We're all going to die someday. The question is, where are you going after you die? I was sad just like everybody else when Steve Irwin died. It's always sad when somebody leaves us too soon. The first thing that popped in my head when I heard the news was that I hope he was saved. If he was saved, he's in Heaven right now. If not, he's in Hell. He was a great guy, he entertained people, but if he didn't saving faith, then he's not in Heaven. With all the things going on in this world, tomorrow isn't guaranteed. That's why it is important that you trust in Jesus Christ for eternal life.

[RushDog]

I just don't have that faith. I'd prefer to be a good man and live my life in a way I feel is right.. and in the end whatever happens, happens.

If I don't 'accept' Jesus Christ as my savior and the end time comes... and God judges me poorly for that... then as far as I'm concerned since I've lived my life better than most Christians I know... then I wouldn't want to go to Heaven anyway if that's the type of God that God would be.


So, you're saying that you'd rather go to hell?

[Kat4Ever]

I don't know if this makes any sense to you. The bottom line is, it's impossible to get into Heaven through personal merit. Being a good guy or girl isn't going to get you into Heaven. Now, you should try to live a good life out of gratitude for being saved. That's where works comes into play. People do things for the church because it's out of gratitude for being saved. Everybody screws up a few times in their life (Even K4E). But, if you trust in Jesus Christ alone for eternal life, God will let you into his Heaven. That's all I'm going to say about it. I'm not going to answer any off the wall questions about Noah's Ark, and why people die early. Being an expert on Noah's Ark, and how they fed the animals, is not going get me into Heaven. It's pretty much just nice to know information. We're all going to die someday. The question is, where are you going after you die? I was sad just like everybody else when Steve Irwin died. It's always sad when somebody leaves us too soon. The first thing that popped in my head when I heard the news was that I hope he was saved. If he was saved, he's in Heaven right now. If not, he's in Hell. He was a great guy, he entertained people, but if he didn't saving faith, then he's not in Heaven. With all the things going on in this world, tomorrow isn't guaranteed. That's why it is important that you trust in Jesus Christ for eternal life.

Ummmmm actually (not to be mean) I had a hard time reading all your ramblings. When I'm more awake I'll go back and look again.

But the picture you're painting is that we're here at God's whim... his personal amusement... that it doesn't matter if we're good if we're not saved.

Do you honestly think that?

If that is the case would you honestly think that God is a good 'person'?

Let's say you worked for me (you're not going to like this example but it's all I can think of right now) and you busted your ass to make money for my company... you were the absolute best employee that I had.

However.. all I wanted of you was to kiss my ass and tell me how wonderful I am and no matter how good of an employee you were and how much money you made me and how much my customers loved you.. and what a great person you were... none of it mattered if you didn't do as I wanted.

That's the picture you've painted of God.

He does as He wants when He wants. It doesn't matter if you're good.. or not good.. because we all sin.. but as long as you 'believe' and as long as you've 'accepted' him then that's all that matters.

But while we're living life he'll take whomever he wants whenever he wants whether it makes sense or not.. and ours is not to question why.

Don't you think that's sort of sad?

And the FACT that the FIRST thing that popped in your head when Steve Irwin died was that you HOPED he was saved? How utterly presumptious of you. Seriously. Any sane individual would have first felt pain and grief and heartfelt sorrow for the family... but you're concerned with whether or not he was saved?

That is the problem that I have with religious fanatics.

And please don't take that the wrong way I'm still not trying to 'pick' a fight, I'm explaining my postion.

But it's the "we're better than anyone else because we're saved and if you're not then you're to be felt sorry for"... and the thinking that EVERYONE should feel and believe exactly as you do.

I'm sorry but I just can't look at life that way.

And my belief in the afterlife doesn't include a cruel God that waves his hand and allows people to die because they're going to a better place.. or allows famine and disease and murders and killings......

and then stands at the gates of Heaven and refuses anyone access that doesn't bend over and kiss his ass... which is exactly the picture that you've painted.

Basically you've said he's a dictator and if you don't live by his rules.. if you don't proclaim him the supreme ruler.. and if you don't accept him above anything else...

then no matter what you're doomed.

That to me is just a scary thought.

[Kat4Ever]

So, you're saying that you'd rather go to hell?

No, you're saying I'm going to hell.. there's quite a difference.

[RushDog]

Here's a good slide presentation, if anyone is interested.
http://www.heargoodnews.org/gospel/doyouknow.html

[RushDog]

Ummmmm actually (not to be mean) I had a hard time reading all your ramblings. When I'm more awake I'll go back and look again.

But the picture you're painting is that we're here at God's whim... his personal amusement... that it doesn't matter if we're good if we're not saved.

Do you honestly think that?

If that is the case would you honestly think that God is a good 'person'?

Let's say you worked for me (you're not going to like this example but it's all I can think of right now) and you busted your ass to make money for my company... you were the absolute best employee that I had.

However.. all I wanted of you was to kiss my ass and tell me how wonderful I am and no matter how good of an employee you were and how much money you made me and how much my customers loved you.. and what a great person you were... none of it mattered if you didn't do as I wanted.

That's the picture you've painted of God.

He does as He wants when He wants. It doesn't matter if you're good.. or not good.. because we all sin.. but as long as you 'believe' and as long as you've 'accepted' him then that's all that matters.

But while we're living life he'll take whomever he wants whenever he wants whether it makes sense or not.. and ours is not to question why.

Don't you think that's sort of sad?

That is the problem that I have with religious fanatics.

And please don't take that the wrong way I'm still not trying to 'pick' a fight, I'm explaining my postion.

But it's the "we're better than anyone else because we're saved and if you're not then you're to be felt sorry for"... and the thinking that EVERYONE should feel and believe exactly as you do.

I'm sorry but I just can't look at life that way.

And my belief in the afterlife doesn't include a cruel God that waves his hand and allows people to die because they're going to a better place.. or allows famine and disease and murders and killings......

and then stands at the gates of Heaven and refuses anyone access that doesn't bend over and kiss his ass... which is exactly the picture that you've painted.

Basically you've said he's a dictator and if you don't live by his rules.. if you don't proclaim him the supreme ruler.. and if you don't accept him above anything else...

then no matter what you're doomed.

That to me is just a scary thought.

This isn't something I made up. This is straight from the Bible. This is God's word. Not mine. If you don't accept it, then so be it.

[lizzyj]

Rushdog,

I read your post, hanging on every word, and when I was finished, I cried.

You can either have the holy spirit with you every day thru salvation, or the holy spirit can come to you during witness, when God reaches out for you. But without the holy spirit, they will not understand. They think with their head and not their heart.

I thank you for your post, and God will bless you for it. I pray that the Holy Spirit comes to the unbeliever, so that they will feel the love of Christ.

[lizzyj]

Since we're talking about religion, I have two questions for everybody.

1. Are you at a place in your spiritual life, where if you died today, you know for sure that you're going to Heaven?

2. If God asked you "Why should I let you into my Heaven?" What would you tell him?


1. Yes

2. Because I have been washed by the blood of Jesus, and forgiven of my sin. I excepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. He died for my sin, so that I could be saved. My sins are forgiven.

[TaylorHicksRocks]

Here's a good slide presentation, if anyone is interested.
http://www.heargoodnews.org/gospel/doyouknow.html

I went to the slide presentaion and found it to be very uplifting!
As far as the big bang theory goes I don't believe that my brther explained the big bang to e after he went away to the University of Colorado. I believe that 6 days in our time could be 6 million years in Gods time. And after so many years in our time the earth shifted. Evolution happened, my brother also believes that we evolved from Apes. I don't believe this however I know that they teach this in our public schools. My nephew is always telling my son that we used to be monkeys. However if this were true the 6 days in our time being being different than God's time would explain that. My mom also dragged us from one church to another. Until she found Unity and I remember reciting a Bible verse from the old testament and my Sundy School teacher telling me that they didn't believe that the Old Testament really happenned that te New Testament was true and that was all they believed in, I felt robbed........

[RushDog]

That is the problem that I have with religious fanatics.



I'm not a religious fanatic. I'm a Phily fanatic....


http://www.wegorotary.org/images/PICDanFanaticWhichOne.jpg

[RushDog]

....an Elvis fanatic....

http://www.tsckaraoke.net/gifs/alohaeagle1.jpg

[RushDog]

....But, never a religious fanatic!


http://www.wmtw.com/2006/0831/9769875_240X180.jpg

[X1TX]

Since we're talking about religion, I have two questions for everybody.

1. Are you at a place in your spiritual life, where if you died today, you know for sure that you're going to Heaven?

2. If God asked you "Why should I let you into my Heaven?" What would you tell him?

1: Absolutely. Of this I have no doubt.

2: My response: "You shouldn't, I don't deserve it." But entrance is not based on my 'earning' or 'deserving' it. It's based on the "New Covenant" where I've been adopted into His family. Reminds me of that lyric:

Not because of who I am
But because of what You've done
Not because of what I've done
But because of who You are

[Kat4Ever]

Let me put it another way.

Who is the 'better' person:

A. Married 25 years. Has never cheated on his wife. Doesn't drink, smoke or do any drugs... nor has he ever. Has never hit a woman in his life. Has never stolen anything, ever. Is a strong presence in his community in trying to make things better and is always involved in charities to help out minorities, the poor and the unlucky. Sure at times he slips and 'sins'... in I guess you could say the 'little stuff... he did have premarital sex like pretty much everyone else does... etc, etc.

2. Married 25 years. Has cheated on his wife so many times he's lost track. Drinks to excess... and then drives although he's never been caught. He couldn't care less about his fellow man and is only driven by money and the life it gives him. He gives to charity although only when it appears it's in his best interest (meaning making him look good).

I'm going to guess that everyone is going to say individual 1... but that everyone also realizes it's a trap also.

Because man #1 in this case isn't going to believe that Jesus Christ is his savior. He's not a religious person.. he just does what's right and acts 'right' because he believes that's the right thing to do.

Whereas man #2 goes to church on Sunday... and then by Monday is out flirting and by Friday has another woman in his bed... while lying to everyone throughout the week about how his life really is.

Extreme? Sure. But if you don't believe it happens then you're lying also.

Everyone here has had premarital sex.. or I'm going to imagine that most of you have, whether you admit it or not. But it's obviously against 'God's rules' but you did it anyway.

Why? Because you wanted to.. and also because you were 'saved' you felt that God forgives your sins. What a funny way to live.. doing something wrong because you 'think' it's okay.

Do you really.. honestly think that it's OKAY to do something that is a 'sin' when you KNOW it's a sin... especially if you do it over and over and over again.......

even if you think you're saved?

I guess that's why I don't live my life that way. I can't be that hypocritical.

You have no proof that God is how you envision him... none.. zip... zero. You can't.. you can't 'prove' it.

But you have faith and I admire that.

Although as Rush proved some of you are putting it in a God that you write about as almost evil.. as a dictator that says 'it's either my way.. or the down way'. A God that takes people FAR before their time, without any understanding of why or how it's fair or right. A God that wouldn't care if you were 'good' as long as you were 'his'.

But you don't question it because you have faith.

I guess I find that a little 'weak' minded... no offense meant.. I mean more that you wouldn't question it, rather you just accept it.

[AbsentElement]

Let me put it another way.

Who is the 'better' person:

A. Married 25 years. Has never cheated on his wife. Doesn't drink, smoke or do any drugs... nor has he ever. Has never hit a woman in his life. Has never stolen anything, ever. Is a strong presence in his community in trying to make things better and is always involved in charities to help out minorities, the poor and the unlucky. Sure at times he slips and 'sins'... in I guess you could say the 'little stuff... he did have premarital sex like pretty much everyone else does... etc, etc.

2. Married 25 years. Has cheated on his wife so many times he's lost track. Drinks to excess... and then drives although he's never been caught. He couldn't care less about his fellow man and is only driven by money and the life it gives him. He gives to charity although only when it appears it's in his best interest (meaning making him look good).

I'm going to guess that everyone is going to say individual 1... but that everyone also realizes it's a trap also.

Because man #1 in this case isn't going to believe that Jesus Christ is his savior. He's not a religious person.. he just does what's right and acts 'right' because he believes that's the right thing to do.

Whereas man #2 goes to church on Sunday... and then by Monday is out flirting and by Friday has another woman in his bed... while lying to everyone throughout the week about how his life really is.

Extreme? Sure. But if you don't believe it happens then you're lying also.

Everyone here has had premarital sex.. or I'm going to imagine that most of you have, whether you admit it or not. But it's obviously against 'God's rules' but you did it anyway.

Why? Because you wanted to.. and also because you were 'saved' you felt that God forgives your sins. What a funny way to live.. doing something wrong because you 'think' it's okay.

Do you really.. honestly think that it's OKAY to do something that is a 'sin' when you KNOW it's a sin... especially if you do it over and over and over again.......

even if you think you're saved?

I guess that's why I don't live my life that way. I can't be that hypocritical.

You have no proof that God is how you envision him... none.. zip... zero. You can't.. you can't 'prove' it.

But you have faith and I admire that.

Although as Rush proved some of you are putting it in a God that you write about as almost evil.. as a dictator that says 'it's either my way.. or the down way'. A God that takes people FAR before their time, without any understanding of why or how it's fair or right. A God that wouldn't care if you were 'good' as long as you were 'his'.

But you don't question it because you have faith.

I guess I find that a little 'weak' minded... no offense meant.. I mean more that you wouldn't question it, rather you just accept it.

define "good..." why is #1 man "better"? ... or actually it's #A man, lol.

[X1TX]

1. Let me turn that around and ask you. How can you be so SURE there is actually a Heaven... I mean honestly. Faith aside (well actually it can't be faith aside because that's all you have... there is NO proof. It's impossible to prove so it is only faith.).

Also.. let's assume that you're a good person that hasn't taken Jesus Christ as your savior... let's assume you don't believe that he existed (I'm doing this for arguements purpose).. BUT you've lived yourself as good as any good Christian has... and let's say perhaps even better.

Are you saying that 'your' God is such a God that if a GOOD person came to the gates of Heaven, but he just hadn't accepted that God was true... that he would be turned away because of that fact?

If you say 'yes he would' then would you honestly want that God as 'your' God?

I wouldn't say He 'would' turn such a person away. Only that He could. Since He is God, no one can tell Him who He can or cannot admit into heaven. Anyone who says otherwise is trying to take the place of God on the judgement seat. And from everything I read in scripture, He has issues with folks trying to take His place. What those who accept Christ gain is the freedom and confidence that they will pass the judgement seat. The rest will have to stand before God and answer for everything in their lives.

2. I'm confused as to why you'd be asked why you should be let in? If God is all knowing then either you're in or you're out according to what I assume you believe in. There should be no question.

We as Christians 'should' (will) be let in because of our calling and that we have responded (in faith) to the invitation to join Him. We're not being admitted because we're 'good' people (there is none good). The whole theme of the Bible (OT & NT) is a call to seek God and follow him. It's not about being a good (perfect) person. Recall that those most opposed by Jesus were the legalists who tried to load up people with a huge rule book. It's not about following the rules, it's about persuing a relationship. If you pursue a relationship with God, your heart will change and you'll naturally become a more 'moral' person. But Satan is not opposed to good morals, he's opposed to the person of Jesus Christ. (That was a good line from a movie).

[aztecgoods]

Let me put it another way.

Who is the 'better' person:

A. Married 25 years. Has never cheated on his wife. Doesn't drink, smoke or do any drugs... nor has he ever. Has never hit a woman in his life. Has never stolen anything, ever. Is a strong presence in his community in trying to make things better and is always involved in charities to help out minorities, the poor and the unlucky. Sure at times he slips and 'sins'... in I guess you could say the 'little stuff... he did have premarital sex like pretty much everyone else does... etc, etc.

2. Married 25 years. Has cheated on his wife so many times he's lost track. Drinks to excess... and then drives although he's never been caught. He couldn't care less about his fellow man and is only driven by money and the life it gives him. He gives to charity although only when it appears it's in his best interest (meaning making him look good).

I'm going to guess that everyone is going to say individual 1... but that everyone also realizes it's a trap also.

Because man #1 in this case isn't going to believe that Jesus Christ is his savior. He's not a religious person.. he just does what's right and acts 'right' because he believes that's the right thing to do.

Whereas man #2 goes to church on Sunday... and then by Monday is out flirting and by Friday has another woman in his bed... while lying to everyone throughout the week about how his life really is.

Extreme? Sure. But if you don't believe it happens then you're lying also.

Everyone here has had premarital sex.. or I'm going to imagine that most of you have, whether you admit it or not. But it's obviously against 'God's rules' but you did it anyway.

Why? Because you wanted to.. and also because you were 'saved' you felt that God forgives your sins. What a funny way to live.. doing something wrong because you 'think' it's okay.

Do you really.. honestly think that it's OKAY to do something that is a 'sin' when you KNOW it's a sin... especially if you do it over and over and over again.......

even if you think you're saved?

I guess that's why I don't live my life that way. I can't be that hypocritical.

You have no proof that God is how you envision him... none.. zip... zero. You can't.. you can't 'prove' it.

But you have faith and I admire that.

Although as Rush proved some of you are putting it in a God that you write about as almost evil.. as a dictator that says 'it's either my way.. or the down way'. A God that takes people FAR before their time, without any understanding of why or how it's fair or right. A God that wouldn't care if you were 'good' as long as you were 'his'.

But you don't question it because you have faith.

I guess I find that a little 'weak' minded... no offense meant.. I mean more that you wouldn't question it, rather you just accept it.

I am guessing that one of the reasons for the no premarital sex rule is to keep idiots like me out of the predicament I currently find myself in. If I would have followed the rules, I would not be screwed like I am now. So even the rules we may consider "minor" or surely God doesn't care about that, are there for idiots like me.

[RushDog]

I am guessing that one of the reasons for the no premarital sex rule is to keep idiots like me out of the predicament I currently find myself in. If I would have followed the rules, I would not be screwed like I am now. So even the rules we may consider "minor" or surely God doesn't care about that, are there for idiots like me.

I wouldn't go as far as to call you an idiot. Even if you're saved, You're still going to sin. However, if you are one of God's children, he will discipline you one way or another. Just like a parent who loved their children would discipline them. I'm a good example. He's chastised me many times. But I know he does that because he loves me. Also, the stronger you get in your faith, Satan tries to tempt you even more. And, it's very subtle sometimes. So, don't get too down on yourelf. That's what the devil wants. Just try to be the best dad, you possibly could be. Look at this as a blessing. This might be part of God's plan. Anyway, once your baby is born, you'll have whole different outlook. Trust me on that one.

[Kat4Ever]

I am guessing that one of the reasons for the no premarital sex rule is to keep idiots like me out of the predicament I currently find myself in. If I would have followed the rules, I would not be screwed like I am now. So even the rules we may consider "minor" or surely God doesn't care about that, are there for idiots like me.

You're being very harsh on yourself for something that pretty much everyone does.

If there's a lesson to be learned it's that you need to be prepared for the consequences when you do something like that.

I don't think you're a bad person, nor does anyone here.

Your life isn't over as you've been told by everyone here.. it's just another step.

Of course I don't know you and neither does anyone here so whether you're prepared for that step or not is not for us to judge.. it's for you to judge.

I'm not in the group that considers this 'God's plan'... if that's the case it's rather cruel to just dump this on you... but I also don't consider it an evil curse either.

The two of you are the only ones that should judge what is best for you at this point. Don't make it a rash judgement but at the same time don't do what's 'right' because you think you have to do it.

That's a perfect way to build resentment for your new wife and child that will never go away if you are 'forced' into something that neither of you want.

[lizzyj]

Galatians ch 6, vs 7
Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

If someone dies and goes to hell, its not Gods fault, they had the choice to turn to God or away from him.

In K4E post of the 2 men, I don't see where either one of them are going to heaven, neither are saved. The second man may go to church, but that doesn't save you. You have to ask to be saved, go to God with a child like heart, ask for forgiveness, receive Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior...then you are saved. Once saved, you are punished for sin/mistakes just as you would your own child. But forgiven you are.

There are many people in church that are going to hell. Salvation is the only key. Not good works, not church, nothing but forgiveness of sin through the blood Christ shed on the cross...........he cleansed me.

When you are saved, the holy spirit enters your body, this spirit makes you strive to do good works, to be a better person. The spirit reminds you when you are wrong and guides you to do right.

[Kat4Ever]

define "good..." why is #1 man "better"?

Well obviously there is more to being good... a better term would have been more moral now that I think about it.

I don't judge people generally so whether or not anyone is cheating on their spouse is their decision to make and not mine to judge.

I leave that to those religious folk that always seem to want to judge everyone around them because they think that anyone that doesn't see things their way... are obviously on the path of the Devil.

[lizzyj]

Most Christians don't judge, because we all sin. How can I judge you if I did something wrong 10 minutes ago?

[Kat4Ever]

Once saved, you are punished for sin/mistakes just as you would your own child. But forgiven you are.

How are you 'punished' out of curiousity?

Are you supposing that bad things happen to good people out of punishment for their sins?

Are you supposing that let's say a father dies (like Steve Irwin) because he sinned.. or his wife sinned and God just decided to 'take' him?

Of that maybe if a man or woman loses their job and goes on poverty it's because they did something wrong in the eyes of the Lord.

Or perhaps Aztec's punishment for premarital sex was that his girlfriend is now pregnant.

"Ha," says God sitting high above us... "take that you evil, evil, little man!"

I can't believe that some of you actually believe what you're typing.

But I suppose that's the life you've chosen to live and the faith you've decided to have.

[Kat4Ever]

Most Christians don't judge, because we all sin. How can I judge you if I did something wrong 10 minutes ago?

Yeah, you're sinning now since you KNOW what you're saying is a lie.

You've judged me since I 'joined' this site and posted my opinions.

You've told me I was the Devil and because of my beliefs you've also said you're sorry for me (well THR did that but it's all the same)....

and you've talked about praying for me and hoping that I find God.

That is absolutely judging me by thinking that your life is better... or your way is better.

Whereas I can almost guarantee you it's not.

I like the life I lead and I like the man I am.

I don't need anyone else to tell me otherwise and I certainly don't need a book to tell me how to live my life.

I do what's right and moral because it's the right thing to do.

[lizzyj]

Babies are a blessing, not punishment. EVER

Example on punishment in my life....
1. Cheated on first husband--took years to find a good man, spend many nights crying over the men who since then cheated on me.(before second marriage)

2. My husband doesn't give his 10% to the church--God takes what is his, and he says that 10% belongs to him, so in my house we spend so much money week after week fixing this, replacing that and I know that if we gave as we should, we would be given extra money, and not taken from.

3. For every time I lie....I'm lied to.

I could list all day long. But I'll say that God punishes as he sees fit. We learn from it, and help others because of it and become better Christians in the end.

[Kat4Ever]

1. Cheated on first husband--took years to find a good man, spend many nights crying over the men who since then cheated on me.(before second marriage)

And you think God punished you for that? You punished yourself for something you did.. something that if you believe the numbers about half of every married person does... which statistically goes to show why you were cheated on as well.

2. My husband doesn't give his 10% to the church--God takes what is his, and he says that 10% belongs to him, so in my house we spend so much money week after week fixing this, replacing that and I know that if we gave as we should, we would be given extra money, and not taken from.

No offense, but I hate reasoning like this. It's the same as someone that just got fired from their job thinking that God owes them because they are 'good'.. and instead of going out right away and providing for their family they sit back and assume that God will provide for them. I'm not saying you're doing this... I'm saying in general.

I have a hard time believing that even if God were as some think he is that he'd have any use for someone that doesn't care take of their own life instead of assuming he'll do it for them.

[Kat4Ever]

Babies are a blessing, not punishment. EVER

Tell that to the MILLIONS of babies that live in poverty everyday in this world.

Or the thousands that are in foster homes because their parents didn't want them or couldn't provide for them.

Or the millions that live in broken homes because of divorce or because they were born out of wedlock.

[lizzyj]

Yeah, you're sinning now since you KNOW what you're saying is a lie.

You've judged me since I 'joined' this site and posted my opinions.

You've told me I was the Devil and because of my beliefs you've also said you're sorry for me (well THR did that but it's all the same)....

and you've talked about praying for me and hoping that I find God.

That is absolutely judging me by thinking that your life is better... or your way is better.

Whereas I can almost guarantee you it's not.

I like the life I lead and I like the man I am.

I don't need anyone else to tell me otherwise and I certainly don't need a book to tell me how to live my life.

I do what's right and moral because it's the right thing to do.


I didn't judge you, you told me that your were not a Christian, well the bible says you can't serve two masters, you are of God or satan. So if you are not of God, then whats left? That's from the bible not me. You may be a wonderful man to your family, treat your friends great...I have no idea.

But it is my job to pray for you. Who doesn't need prayer? Esp an unsaved soul. Maybe it made you feel put down, maybe I should have just done it and not said anything to you..if that would have been better then I'm sorry. I've just learned something.

Its not "my way" that is better, This is Gods way. I only follow him. I'm no better than you (our sins may be different) but never better.

Judging you would have been.....I bet you are not saved. Look at how he acts, he's not a christian, I can tell by the way he said that.

Now, there may have been times when you were called out on being mean to someone, hey, don't do that, thats mean, she has feelings. But if you had come to me and said....look lizzyj, this is what I did wrong in my life, what should I do....I would not have judged you for it, perhaps I do something you wouldn't do. I'm not better than you (maybe a bit kinder on this site) but NEVER better.

[aztecgoods]

I have a new theory about life that I'm pretty sure I'm right, although I can't prove it, but have much evidence.

The premise is: WE ARE IN HELL. (However there could be degrees of Hell and we are in one of the degrees.)

Why? Where did God cast out the Angels that went against him (Bible says to Earth right? Or something similar.)

Why do we all live a mere 60-90 years or so, short time right? Yes cause God only gives us a few years in Hell to prove that we have gotten better and acceptable to a better place. Right? Maybe.

Why are there evil spirits or ghosts that have died and are still here? Answer, maybe they were bad people that did not pass the test we are all currently going through and have gone to a second degree of Hell. (Still on Earth, but alone and in darkness) There are references to this concept in the Bible. Don't ask me to dig them out now.

More evidence. Probably no one on here would dispute that there are situations on Earth, that could indeed be described as hell on earth. Warzone, an Afghan/Pakistan prison, or any prison for that matter. Practically every place on Earth except Western civilized countries. Ever thought what it would be like to be stuck living in outer Mongolia, I don't know but it couldn't be that great.

So maybe that's the answer, we are in Hell doing time, only way to get out is to do the right thing and pass the test we are all currently going through. It makes sense to me.

[lizzyj]

I know you don't feel the same as me. But I would like to share something with you.

When I give to the Lord what he asks, I have extra money every month, when I don't give to God....Man I am broke!

I know this is true, God has proven it to me over and over, and its the only time in the bible when God says, Test me.

[lizzyj]

Bless your heart Aztec, You are really going through things right now. I feel so bad for you. Ask God to turn your negative into a positive and he will.

[lizzyj]

Maybe I'm a bit condescending at times.....K4E

But judge you?, I don't think I do

[aztecgoods]

Bless your heart Aztec, You are really going through things right now. I feel so bad for you. Ask God to turn your negative into a positive and he will.

Thanks, I actually came up with that theory before my current situation, so it really is unrelated. I don't want everyone to feel sorry for me, I'll handle whatever I get thrown so don't worry about me, but I do appreciate it. There are a lot of people in this world with a lot worse problems than me.

[aztecgoods]

Oh and more evidence to my above theory.

If I said you are going to live in 100 degree heat, with mosquitos, cockroaches, rats, wasps, spiders and many other unpleasant creatures munching on you, where would you think you are? Well that describes most parts of the USA and many other places. We just happen to be blessed enough with AC, technology, homes to keep bugs out etc., to prevent them from really bothering us. Can you imagine what it would be like to have to live on the ground outside and combat these conditions on a daily basis? Sounds like hell to me.

[lucy]

K4E, Have you read the bible? You seem like a person that reads alot, so perhaps you have.
If not, I think you should consider reading it. Maybe starting with the New Testament.

God gives us "rules" to guide us and help keep us from making mistakes. Which we, alot of times, disregard. No denying that.

If a moral person does something they know is morally wrong, I think they too are a hypocrit. It does not matter whether or not the word Christian is inserted.
For example, if you teach your children not to lie, then you lie your pants off.....hypocrit.

Just a thought about reading the Bible............you may already have read it, I don't know.

[aztecgoods]

More evidence for my theory above.

Just think how bad things were even just s few hundred years ago. Say you are in France/Gaul dark ages. Maurading mercenaries raping, pillaging murdering your family members. Starvation/Heat/bugs/ other un pleasant things to deal with that we manage to control somewhat with technology. And lets not forget rampant disease like the black plague. No medicine or medical facilities. Not even basics like running water. When I think of living in the dark ages in Europe, that sounds like Hell to me, certainly doesn't sound pleasant AT ALL.

Still another, what if you were marooned on a desert island out in the middle of no where ala the Survivor TV show situation. Again Bugs/heat/animals/starvation/de-hydration, sounds again like hell to me. The more I think about it the more I think I figured out the key to the universe. It makes sense if you think about it objectively. We just manage to put this ugly thought out of our minds cause we all are blessed enough to live in the USA where we have all of the most modern conveniences and technologies at our fingertips that takes care of most of these un pleasant things that everyone else has to deal with.

[lucy]

Az, you do make it sound like hell.............LOL!

You know I don't think you are alone in this theory. I am sure one of the other posters here can tell us, but I think this is "kinda" the Jehovah Witness' theory.
They use the "Holy Bible" just not the "King James Version" and some of the "thinking is different". I had a friend (not my friend anymore, her husband was a contractor, and he built our house...........never use "friends" as contractors) and if I remember correctly, there is either no Revelations in their Bible or its very different....someone PLEASE correct me if I am wrong.

[TaylorHicksRocks]

I could ask what are we trying to do convert K4E? I think we have aleady been there and done that. Are you truly looking for answers? I know that I have several questions myself.........I am hoping that I will get my answers when I get to heaven. Their is no man on earth that has the answers to my questions. :confused: Do gay people go to heaven if they are saved. God created them. I watched my brother grow up he was always gay I believe none of us are born perfect. Well except for Christ..........God created all of us..

[Kat4Ever]

Just a thought about reading the Bible............you may already have read it, I don't know.

Yes, I've read it. My mother is a devout Catholic... while my father is I guess you would say an athiest... interesting combination.

I don't profess to be an expert in it nor can I quote most of the scripture from it... however I know enough to be able to discuss it.

And yes, my questions truly are questions.

I am VERY spiritual... sometimes to the point of 'feeling' a presence around me. I've had 'visions' for lack of a better term that have at times lead me in life or pushed me in a certain direction... or towards a certain goal.

One in particular keeps prompting me to start a charitable organization... and while I've been involved in many... this is something different.

This 'idea' came to me in my sleep... filled my head with a vision of how to start this organization... what it would do... and who I would help.

It is my life's goal to accomplish or fulfill that dream.

I live my life according to a lot of different things I've learned in religions... whether from Hindu faith... or Catholic faith... or even by the teachings of Confucius or other early philosophers.

While I don't pray (I don't believe in asking for help, but helping myself and making things happen)... I do have times where I feel a spiritual presence around me.

Do gay people go to heaven if they are saved. God created them.

I would probably say not according to the Bible and this is one of the areas I have problems with. Most people wouldn't agree with you that God created them but that they are a spawn and chose to live their lives in sin.

I think that sort of thinking is just another way in which people paint God as an evil being that actually would look down upon any of His children and wish them ill will... or not accept them for who they honestly think they are.

But that's just me.

[lucy]

I don't profess to be an expert in it nor can I quote most of the scripture from it... however I know enough to be able to discuss it.
I am not an expert either, but enjoy questions about specifics in the Bible.

And yes, my questions truly are questions.
I believe this.


One in particular keeps prompting me to start a charitable organization... and while I've been involved in many... this is something different.

You should share more of this with us!!!

I live my life according to a lot of different things I've learned in religions... whether from Hindu faith... or Catholic faith... or even by the teachings of Confucius or other early philosophers.
I personally like to hear about different religions.

While I don't pray (I don't believe in asking for help, but helping myself and making things happen)... I do have times where I feel a spiritual presence around me.
Sometimes we don't have to ask for a gift.


would probably say not according to the Bible and this is one of the areas I have problems with. Most people wouldn't agree with you that God created them but that they are a spawn and chose to live their lives in sin.
I think that sort of thinking is just another way in which people paint God as an evil being that actually would look down upon any of His children and wish them ill will... or not accept them for who they honestly think they are.
But that's just me.

Oh, I do not think this.
I think if a person is saved, has asked Jesus in their heart, they go to heaven.
I think sin is sin. I sin, how can I say that my sins are not as bad as a homosexuals. God does the judging not me.
God does not wish ill will to any of his children.


BTW, its hard to type in 3D glasses, my daughter asked me to wear them and watch Shark Boy and Lava Girl........so I am trying to do this and that.

[RushDog]

I could ask what are we trying to do convert K4E? I think we have aleady been there and done that. Are you truly looking for answers?

Nobody is trying convert him. However, I don't think us meeting him on this site was a coincidence. I think that it's happened for a reason. He's looking for spiritual answers, and we've given them to him from a Christian point of view. What he does with that information is his business.
Do gay people go to heaven if they are saved. God created them. I watched my brother grow up he was always gay I believe none of us are born perfect. Well except for Christ..........God created all of us.

If your brother is saved, he could go to Heaven. However, if he is saved, and still wishes to live that lifestyle, then he'll suffer. You can't be a habitual sinner and not expect to be punished. Whether it's through your health, finances, or whatever. Homosexuality is a sin just like every other sin. All sin will be punished one way or another. Why do you think the majority of HIV cases are homosexual men? Why do most alcoholics suffer from some type of liver disease? Why do people who chain smoke more likely to get lung cancer or heart attacks? Why do you think people who are lazy and overeat, get obese and have health problems related to that? God is a loving God, but he's also just and he will punish sin. There's consequences for everything you do in life.

[lizzyj]

K4E,

After reading your last post, I feel like you have a strong calling on your life. I feel like God really wants to use you for his work.

[Kat4Ever]

You should share more of this with us!!!

If you are truly curious I can share more.

It's called Project S.A.F. (which stands for Save America Foundation).

The general or basic concept is pretty similar to what a lot of organizations try but in many instances fail at... but it's much broader than that.

My first and foremost goal would be to create S.A.F (pronounced SAFE) houses across America (which would actually probably be abandoned hotels or the like) that I would use to house families (whether men, women and children or just women and children) that are homeless and most probably without hope... whether out of a job, battered or just needing a kick start in life.

Not only would we provide shelter but working with other companies across the country we'd provide job training and hopefully some sort of career direction (meaning we'd get them training AND find them a job).

The whole idea is to take people that right now probably feed off of society and get them back on track... sort of like what welfare does... and government assistance programs do to a degree... but in a much more specific way.

There would be STRICT rules while using the S.A.F houses... meaning no drinking, no drugs, no prostitution... nothing.

You want help we'll provide it... we'll do everything we can to get you food, shelter, training, a job... back on track.

But if you break the rules, you're done.

I want to help people.. but I will not be a government hand out program that doesn't care about people's actual welfare... but just the numbers.

There's much more to it... but all of this came to me in a vision one night a few years back.. and like I said I've done a LOT of work in charitable organizations and seen what they do or don't do... how they work or don't work... so now it's all just a matter of finding the money, the backing... and then getting things started.

Even the logo S.A.F came to me in that 'dream'... and I felt a presence around me that evening that was so strong that honestly (here comes the laughter) I woke up misty eyed that I was all at once overwhelmed by the feeling and overwhelmed by what it seemed I was supposed to do in life.

[lucy]

My first and foremost goal would be to create S.A.F (pronounced SAFE) houses across America (which would actually probably be abandoned hotels or the like) that I would use to house families (whether men, women and children or just women and children) that are homeless and most probably without hope... whether out of a job, battered or just needing a kick start in life.
Will you marry me?

I want to help people..
That is GREAT! I think we all should help more than we do.

and I felt a presence around me that evening that was so strong that honestly (here comes the laughter) I woke up misty eyed that I was all at once overwhelmed by the feeling and overwhelmed by what it seemed I was supposed to do in life.
I swear I only laughed a little, loud but only for a short momemt.....oh no, here it comes again.....lololol
No really, I am shocked that you don't have more/any faith in God!
You might have a hard shell, but you just might be a little soft on the inside!
(I won't jump to any conclusions though)

[lucy]

There's consequences for everything you do in life.
That is right!
The more good you do the more jewels you shall have in your crown.
If you don't do as much, the less jewels you receive.

[Kat4Ever]

but you just might be a little soft on the inside!

There's nothing soft about me....

oh wait, were we discussing something else?

In all honesty there's nothing 'hard' about me.. other than my passion for debate and my passion for arguing about things that I believe in vehemently.

I know full well that sometimes it comes across as wrong... but part of that is because this is a message board.. it's not 'real' life. Whenever you 'discuss' things with someone online, especially with someone you don't know I always take things with a grain of salt because you never, ever truly understand what it is they really meant to say.. or how they meant to say it.

I also have a problem with at times taking people to task for things they say when I believe that (as I've said here before) they really don't know what they're talking about.. and either just talking to hear themselves talk... or just arguing for the sake of arguement.

Sometimes I do have to remind myself that EVERYONE is entitled to an opinion... whether that opinion is worthy in my opinion of being heard or not.

But at times, depending on the subject (ie Politics - which I consider supremely important) I get carried away when someone takes an opposing stance to mine... especially again when I think they're just spouting off about things that they're not especially informed about.

You can look at it this way. You've thrown religion in my face (whether the intent is to do it or not... because you feel passionate about it... and you feel you're trying to 'help' me)... for that I applaud you.

On the flip side I've argued politics with you and LJ... and will continue to do so when some things that were posted were completely inaccurate because I feel passionate about that.

I don't want to 'change' your minds... I just want you to be informed about your decisions.

No really, I am shocked that you don't have more/any faith in God!

Actually I've never once said I didn't have faith in 'God'. I've just said it's placed different than most here.

Well I guess to be honest I should say I don't know that I do or don't have 'faith'. I have feelings and I have thoughts and they differ from your standard religious beliefs.

For instance there are several stories in the Bible obviously that I think are somewhat fabricated... they are written by people so why it would be so hard to think this could be the case is something I don't understand.

Whether or not Jesus really lived is a subject I've debated... just like what types of power does God really possess.

I suppose I have a hard time looking at life as it is today and believing that a 'good' and gracious all powerful being... 'God'... would allow things to be as they are.

And my faith doesn't allow me to just accept things. I just can't. I'm the type of guy that wants to change the world... stupid as that may sound.

That is GREAT! I think we all should help more than we do.

I think the world we live in would be a much better place if that were the case.

[Kat4Ever]

Will you marry me?

Since we're both married it probably wouldn't go over well.

Otherwise there's a strong possibility you'd be just what I'd be looking for in a wife.

Other than your fanatical Republican beliefs.....

:)

[lucy]

There's nothing soft about me....
oh wait, were we discussing something else?
Sometimes you are funny!
know full well that sometimes it comes across as wrong... but part of that is because this is a message board.. it's not 'real' life. Whenever you 'discuss' things with someone online, especially with someone you don't know I always take things with a grain of salt because you never, ever truly understand what it is they really meant to say.. or how they meant to say it.
This is true, I have posted something and later read it and thought "Oh, that did not quite come across as I intended."
I think they're just spouting off about things that they're not especially informed about.
I admit to some spouting!! I think we all have.
You've thrown religion in my face (whether the intent is to do it or not... because you feel passionate about it... and you feel you're trying to 'help' me)... for that I applaud you.
I really don't think I have done this, I have mentioned "once or twice" about your "possible intolerance of other people's opinions".
But I try not to throw religion into the conversations that I have here.
I don't want to 'change' your minds... I just want you to be informed about your decisions.
Keep informing us..................I think we can take it............can you mail us some nerve pills?.....lololol
Well I guess to be honest I should say I don't know that I do or don't have 'faith'.
Don't get mad, but I wonder if this uncertainty comes from you having two parents on opposite ends of the religious spectrum....I think this is a possibility.
For instance there are several stories in the Bible obviously that I think are somewhat fabricated... they are written by people so why it would be so hard to think this could be the case is something I don't understand.
I don't entirely disagree with this.....sure, I believe metaphors and symbolism could have been used. BUT alot of the answers are in there, we just don't take enough time to look. (I realize that not all of the answers are there, we will just have to wait and see when we get there.)

[lucy]

Since we're both married it probably wouldn't go over well.
Otherwise there's a strong possibility you'd be just what I'd be looking for in a wife.
Other than your fanatical Republican beliefs.....:)

:p
"fanatical", I hope I don't come across as fanatical.

[Kat4Ever]

Don't get mad, but I wonder if this uncertainty comes from you having two parents on opposite ends of the religious spectrum....I think this is a possibility.

I rarely get mad... especially over any of this.

I at times can get frustrated. I think there's a huge difference.

My major sins are intolerance and women..... meaning I need to control myself when it comes to both.

Both give me great weakness.

[Kat4Ever]

"fanatical", I hope I don't come across as fanatical.

It was a joke.

To be honest... you come across as someone that I'd be very interested in knowing in another life.

MEANING I think you are intelligent, honest and faithful and very willing to stick up for yourself and your friends.

All very commendable and special character traits.

[lucy]

It was a joke.
To be honest... you come across as someone that I'd be very interested in knowing in another life.
MEANING I think you are intelligent, honest and faithful and very willing to stick up for yourself and your friends.
All very commendable and special character traits.

Thank You.
Yes, in another life I would be interested in knowing you too. I don't know what I would do with you but I would like to know you...lol

(don't be surprised when this post is deleted tomorrow am, I can't let everyone else know, hee hee)

[Kat4Ever]

I don't know what I would do with you

I'm quite sure I could think of a few things....

I don't know what that meant.. I don't know who said that.......

I'm going to bed now.

[RushDog]

Thank You.
Yes, in another life I would be interested in knowing you too. I don't know what I would do with you but I would like to know you...lol

(don't be surprised when this post is deleted tomorrow am, I can't let everyone else know, hee hee)

I can't believe my eyes.:cool_shad Lucy, you are about fickle.:rolleyes:

[lucy]

Rush, How can a person delete a post if you quote it?
Anyway, I was just trying to get out any military secrets he has!

[lizzyj]

I can't believe my eyes.:cool_shad Lucy, you are about fickle.:rolleyes:


Lucy is trying to steal all the men!

What's up with that? and after I posted my sweet little picture :mecry:

[RushDog]

Rush, How can a person delete a post if you quote it?
Anyway, I was just trying to get out any military secrets he has!

You just go into edit and then click on 'Delete Post'

[RushDog]

Lucy is trying to steal all the men!

What's up with that? and after I posted my sweet little picture :mecry:

I know. You girls have been cheating on me while I'm at work. That's messed up.

[lizzyj]

Well if I'm Jan, then Peter (Aztec) was suppose to be my man but he's been talking about another woman on the site. He must be replaced.

Want to be my Peter? (no pun intended)

[RushDog]

Want to be my Peter? (no pun intended)

That didn't come out right. You're not one of them shemales are you?

[lizzyj]

PETER BRADY PETER BRADY PETER BRADY


no i'm not a shemale

(this is not going in a very good direction.....teetee)

[RushDog]

PETER BRADY PETER BRADY PETER BRADY


no i'm not a shemale

(this is not going in a very good direction.....teetee)

I know honey, you're too beautiful to be one of them.

[aztecgoods]

If you are truly curious I can share more.

It's called Project S.A.F. (which stands for Save America Foundation).

The general or basic concept is pretty similar to what a lot of organizations try but in many instances fail at... but it's much broader than that.

My first and foremost goal would be to create S.A.F (pronounced SAFE) houses across America (which would actually probably be abandoned hotels or the like) that I would use to house families (whether men, women and children or just women and children) that are homeless and most probably without hope... whether out of a job, battered or just needing a kick start in life.

Not only would we provide shelter but working with other companies across the country we'd provide job training and hopefully some sort of career direction (meaning we'd get them training AND find them a job).

The whole idea is to take people that right now probably feed off of society and get them back on track... sort of like what welfare does... and government assistance programs do to a degree... but in a much more specific way.

There would be STRICT rules while using the S.A.F houses... meaning no drinking, no drugs, no prostitution... nothing.

You want help we'll provide it... we'll do everything we can to get you food, shelter, training, a job... back on track.

But if you break the rules, you're done.

I want to help people.. but I will not be a government hand out program that doesn't care about people's actual welfare... but just the numbers.

There's much more to it... but all of this came to me in a vision one night a few years back.. and like I said I've done a LOT of work in charitable organizations and seen what they do or don't do... how they work or don't work... so now it's all just a matter of finding the money, the backing... and then getting things started.

Even the logo S.A.F came to me in that 'dream'... and I felt a presence around me that evening that was so strong that honestly (here comes the laughter) I woke up misty eyed that I was all at once overwhelmed by the feeling and overwhelmed by what it seemed I was supposed to do in life.

This could actually make hell a slightly better place.

[TaylorHicksRocks]

BTW, its hard to type in 3D glasses, my daughter asked me to wear them and watch Shark Boy and Lava Girl........so I am trying to do this and that.


My son Loves that Movie!!!!!!!

[AbsentElement]

Whether or not Jesus really lived is a subject I've debated... just like what types of power does God really possess.

Well, I don't really have any doubt in my mind that Jesus existed. His life is the subject of some of the most studied literature ever. But, in all fairness, none of us will ever know first hand (at least here on Earth). Just like we'll never know if the likes of George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Julius Caesar, ever really existed. We are told they existed and we believe it because we are taught to believe it. Of course, in some cases, there are historical documents (i.e. birth certificates, government documents, etc.) to provide evidence of their existence. But why should we believe those anymore than writings and documents of Christ's time?

I'm not saying I don't trust documents which provide evidence of historical figures. I'm personally confident that they are genuine and accurate. The problem is, we are so far removed from Christ (a la 2,000 years) that it becomes more difficult for us to believe in the reason for His existence and His death. Even the people that wrote the majority of the New Testament were far removed from His life by hundreds of years.

So, since noone today has personal knowledge about His life, the only thing people have to rely on is faith. Faith that the Word in the Bible is true. Much in the same way the only thing we have to truly rely on for believing in the existence of other prominent figures throughout history is faith. Faith in what we've been taught, and faith in the supporting documents.

I guess the bottom line is that, really, unless you have personally experienced something, you can only rely on faith in deciding whether or not to believe it truly happened. A perfect example... in the "paranormal activity" thread, I mention an incident my wife witnessed. Part of me is skeptical because I wasn't there. But because she's my wife, I trust her, and she told me about it, I believe.

So, there are things we don't understand because we aren't first-hand witnesses. Hence, all of the questions raised in this thread. One such question would be, "Why would God put us here, give us no personal knowledge of His or Christ's existence, and condemn us to Hell if we don't believe?" In our human sense of what's fair and what's not fair... this just doesn't seem fair. It's a question that noone on Earth can answer. So it all boils down to faith.

What I would be more interested in knowing is, what is it that makes people find faith? Because, as I've pointed out, humans relate believing in something (having faith) to our personal experiences. How does one find faith if personal experiences have not led them to do so?

[AbsentElement]

If I tell you that you can create a soda geyser by dropping a stack of Mentos into a 2-liter of Diet Coke, would you believe me? Maybe, but until you experience it or witness it yourself, you'll not actually know the truth.

I was just curious... has anyone tried this yet? lol.

[RushDog]

I was just curious... has anyone tried this yet? lol.

I'm thinking about it.

[Kat4Ever]

"Why would God put us here, give us no personal knowledge of His or Christ's existence, and condemn us to Hell if we don't believe?"

I've sort of said that same thing or asked that same question here in one shape or another a couple of times and nobody has really answered it.

I guess, not to belittle anyone's faith, that it just seems very 'evil' to me.

God is supposed to be this all powerful deity that created life... but then in another breath you're telling everyone that if you DON'T believe in him (with no proof and no evidence whatsoever) then you'd condemned to Hell.

To me that doesn't sound like a good and gracious God that everyone thinks or wants him to be.

I mean come on.. honestly... do you 'believers' truly not see that?

Do you not wonder why a God.. the God.. wouldn't just come down and declare himself real once every hundred years or so just to show off his power if He REALLY wanted everyone to believe and know he was real... other than just letting everyone speculate whether he is or not?

Do you really think it's supposed to come down to faith.

You're going to live an everlasting life in Heaven or Hell based on whether or not you believe in what may very well be a fairy tale... and God is going to allow that to happen because he's too busy to prove his existence.

It all sounds very strange to me.

If anybody honestly has a good answer to that question I'd love to hear it... other than God can do what God wants to do because he is God.

I doubt anybody can answer it and that's one of my problems.

There's simply too much in the Bible and too much associated with faith that is just... well faith based.

We're supposed to believe because we're supposed to... otherwise we go to Hell.

Where is that fair or right?

Don't you wonder?

[lizzyj]

God commands us to witness to others, he gives us all a "calling", some of which are called to preach, be missionaries, or open homes for others in need (also to teach Gods word), etc.

Christians are responsible to witness to others, and once the word is out there, it is up to the individual to take that information and make their own decision. IF we as Christians don't do our job...ie spread the word, to the unsaved, the uninformed persons blood is on our hands. We are held accountable.

But God sends Christians to witness to uninformed people.

[AbsentElement]

"Why would God put us here, give us no personal knowledge of His or Christ's existence, and condemn us to Hell if we don't believe?"I've sort of said that same thing or asked that same question here in one shape or another a couple of times and nobody has really answered it.

Okay, I'll try to offer a plausible answer here. I've tried to be a little unclear and vague as to my own beliefs in my postings, and ask more thought-provoking questions, just for the sake of discussion, but I guess I'll have resign to actually stating what I believe. The short answer is simply to test our faith in Him. Does that sound unfair? Does it sound like an evil little game? Perhaps, in our human or earthly understanding of what's "fair." That's up to each of us to decide.

I believe that God has given us His Word through the Bible. Of course, the Bible was written down by mankind, but it was written by people who were trusted sources of the Word (through their personal experiences with God and Christ) in their time. Are the people we trust in our own time always right or always accurate? No, of course not. So obviously it would be even more difficult for us to trust people who lived before our time. So really, what we should be asking is, "What compels us to trust the Bible?" For me, its the inherent "good" in the Word, in addition to its ability to, thus far, stand the test of time. Although there are some slight variations throughout history, it basically remains the same. The principles and teachings remain the same.

In some of your postings you refer to living life with good moral values. Where do those values come from? Ultimately, they come from God, through His Word in the Bible. So, let's think about the question of getting into Heaven through faith as opposed to deeds. I believe that, there must be more to Judgement Day than only whether or not you accept Christ as your Savior. Otherwise, the Bible would be only as long as John 3:16.

Does that make sense? To support the point, take this portion of a sentence: K4E shot lizzyj. This has a much different meaning than when put together with the rest of the sentence: 's basketball out of a tree with a slingshot.

Why give us the 10 commandments if they don't count? Why give us all of the other teachings of Christ if they don't count? I believe they do count. So, K4E, if you're living your life with moral values that parallel those taught in the Bible, you're halfway there. The other half is faith. Each of us can only truly find that on our own by deciding what to believe. Sounds to me like, if you believe you try to live your life right, that's a compelling reason to believe the Bible... I mean, afterall, that's the ultimate source on right vs. wrong.

Do you not wonder why a God.. the God.. wouldn't just come down and declare himself real once every hundred years or so just to show off his power if He REALLY wanted everyone to believe and know he was real... other than just letting everyone speculate whether he is or not?

Maybe it's like the movie "Constantine" where He and Satan are not supposed to directly interfere with humans on Earth. LOL. No, really, how would He do it? And even if He did, would you believe it was actually God? He has revealed Himself before. Maybe not to you individually, but He has revealed Himself through others. This is how the Bible came about. Again, it's a matter of whether you personally believe/trust those who have offered there testimony.

[lizzyj]

nice example AE, K4E shot lizzyj...............I had to laugh. He probably would like too at times.....teetee


(and I've been trying to be soooo nice)

[Kat4Ever]

Each of us can only truly find that on our own by deciding what to believe. Sounds to me like, if you believe you try to live your life right, that's a compelling reason to believe the Bible... I mean, afterall, that's the ultimate source on right vs. wrong.

Really? Do you follow the Bible? No you don't. Or I should say no, you probably don't.

Not everything in there because it goes against your wants and desires.

Of course the 'Christian' answer is we all sin but as long as you're saved it's all good.

Whatever.

And that's besides the fact that there are so many ridiculously impossible stories in there it reads more like a fairy tale than a word from God.

He has revealed Himself before. Maybe not to you individually, but He has revealed Himself through others. This is how the Bible came about. Again, it's a matter of whether you personally believe/trust those who have offered there testimony.

That's only true if you have faith. Do you believe every person that says he/she saw God in her tea? Or in the water? Or in a tomato?

Do you imagine that all the people that believed in Robert Tilton - who was 'stealing' more than $80 million per year from Christians that fed him money in exchange for prayers - were good people lead astray or bad people being punished by God?

Or what about Jim Bakker or Jimmy Swaggart? Are these 'good' Christians that did right by their followes?

You made a post earlier about it correlating to the same thing as believing in like Lincoln or anyone else in history.

No, it doesn't.

Those people can be proved to have lived.

God is all about faith.

And it still doesn't answer the question of why if he gave his son once to make believers out of people.. that in 2000 years he wouldn't do so again.

There is no good answer... because as a Christian you're not supposed to question, you're supposed to believe.

[lizzyj]

The 10 commandments were given in the old testament, it was given to show us that we couldn't live by it, we couldn't follow the laws completely, and to show us we needed the blood of Jesus to cleanse our sin.

We were ready to receive Jesus because we knew we failing in regards to what he commanded.

Since we aren't sin free, we have to be cleansed with Jesus' blood to get to heaven.

[RushDog]

I have no doubt in my mind that God is working on K4E!

[lizzyj]

I think he has a strong calling and can do wonderful work for God!

[lucy]

I know. You girls have been cheating on me while I'm at work. That's messed up.
I love you Rush!
I would never consider cheating on you, (that is unless K4E changes his avatar to someone as handsome as you!)!!!!
It's that Lj, making you doubt me, she is something with that new avatar!

[lucy]

Don't you wonder?

I think some doubts and questions are normal. I don't think this angers God.
We need to admit these doubts and questions to ourselves and to God and begin looking for some answers.
Whether or not you are a Christian, you will never have complete answers to all of life's questions.
Don't allow natural questions to interfere with your ability to try and communicate with God.

[lizzyj]

I love you Rush!
I would never consider cheating on you, (that is unless K4E changes his avatar to someone as handsome as you!)!!!!
It's that Lj, making you doubt me, she is something with that new avatar!


Well its a dog eat dog world, and it was feeding time.

teetee

[lucy]

Oh, I thought you had logged off.................

[lizzyj]

I was watching you under "guest"

[lucy]

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL, You are too funny!!

and a little too sneaky for my taste.

[RushDog]

Alright you two, settle down. Just know that I love you both, and I'll always be there for you.

[lucy]

Thank you, Rushdog. You are a sweetie.

[lucy]

I admit that just because I know God's rules, I do not always follow them. I have been closer to God than I am at this moment in my life. I am wrong for this.
I am not saying I do anything horrible, because I don't. I just have been closer to him than I am right this minute. The main reason is that I haven't been taking the time to stay close.
I guess I could be called a hypocrit for giving advice. (I hope not, though K4E)
But I just don't think only Christians can be hypocrits. We all are hypocrits in one fashion or another.
We all should try harder.

[RushDog]

I admit that just because I know God's rules, I do not always follow them. I have been closer to God than I am at this moment in my life. I am wrong for this.
I am not saying I do anything horrible, because I don't. I just have been closer to him than I am right this minute. The main reason is that I haven't been taking the time to stay close.
I guess I could be called a hypocrit for giving advice. (I hope not, though K4E)
But I just don't think only Christians can be hypocrits. We all are hypocrits in one fashion or another.
We all should try harder.


Nobody is perfect Lucy. When you become stronger in your faith, God reveals your sins to you. It's called being convicted. There are things that I used to do that I thought were okay a few years ago, that I don't want to do now. I used to cuss people out left and right. I used to be brash and I didn't care what people thought because I knew I was right. I was the world's teller-offer. Well, God told that that wasn't the way to be and I've had to learn to be alot more understanding and patient. There's still alot of things I need to work on. If you're feeling guilt, then that means God is telling you something. Anyway, you're wonderful. So, don't feel down on yourself.

[lucy]

You are right, Rush. Conviction.
I at one time was much closer to God than I am now.
We go to church often, but not twice a week like we used to.

I respect K4E, more now than ever because of his desire to help people, and even the desire to ask about God. I want to be honest with him and everyone else that reads my posts..........
(thank you Rush, you always make me feel better)

[AbsentElement]

Really? Do you follow the Bible? No you don't. Or I should say no, you probably don't.

Not everything in there because it goes against your wants and desires.

Of course the 'Christian' answer is we all sin but as long as you're saved it's all good.I don't know anyone that claims to live 100% by the Bible. And that's the whole purpose behind John 3:16. Look, I get your point. You're saying it's wrong for people to go out and freely commit sin without worry because they can always "fall back" on John 3:16. I get that. But let me ask you this. Do you think people that act in that manner truly believe in their hearts that they're saved? Do you think they actually believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose from the dead and returned to Heaven? Sure they might say they believe, or they're saved or whatever. But if they're not putting forth some effort to live by the Word, chances are they aren't truly saved.

And that's besides the fact that there are so many ridiculously impossible stories in there it reads more like a fairy tale than a word from God.Like which ones? Noah and the Ark? I don't think everything in the Bible is meant to be absolutely literal. It is the point of the story that should be taken to heart. In the case of Noah's Ark, how much of the actual story you believe doesn't really matter. The whole point of the story is God's covenant to mankind. Besides, I think God was smart to include such stories in his Word. How do you think the Bible would appeal to children without fantastic stories?

That's only true if you have faith. Do you believe every person that says he/she saw God in her tea? Or in the water? Or in a tomato?Of course not, and for debate's sake, that's kind of a ridiculous question. I've already explained why I believe what I believe.

Do you imagine that all the people that believed in Robert Tilton - who was 'stealing' more than $80 million per year from Christians that fed him money in exchange for prayers - were good people lead astray or bad people being punished by God?Maybe both. I don't know, I'm not the judge. But I do know that when someone asks you for money in exchange for prayers, a red flag has to go up. You don't have to pay for prayer. That's free. Heck even a basic copy of the Bible is free.

You made a post earlier about it correlating to the same thing as believing in like Lincoln or anyone else in history.

No, it doesn't.

Those people can be proved to have lived.Okay, prove it. What are you going to show me? Documents? What if I don't believe them? Are you going to show me photos and tell me it's Lincoln? What if I don't believe you? How do you even know it's Lincoln? Because someone told you, or because you read it somewhere, and you chose to believe it.

God is all about faith.Exactly. Faith not only in Him, but in His Word.

And it still doesn't answer the question of why if he gave his son once to make believers out of people.. that in 2000 years he wouldn't do so again.Isn't He supposed to come again in the next couple of years? Probably not, but seriously, are we really in such bad shape that He needs to come again soon? I know there is a lot of "bad" in the world, but I think we're still mostly good. And our societies' laws are mostly all still based on His Word.

There is no good answer... because as a Christian you're not supposed to question, you're supposed to believe.You're exactly right. You aren't supposed to question. But then again, you're given free will to do so. Kinda puts us in a bind doesn't it? I don't think you're going to find a "good" answer other than faith, not just in J3:16, but in the whole Word.

If you're looking for an explanation for why those who are morally corrupt and claim to be saved would go to Heaven over someone who has lived life morally but doesn't claim to have been saved, I don't think you'll find one. I don't think it would happen. Because, as I said, anyone can claim to be saved but actually believing it is a different story. You have to believe, not just say you believe.

If we read a little further in John 3, "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

So what I believe is that actions speak louder than words. You can tell if someone really believes they are saved by their actions. To me, this notion of yours about how people can claim to be saved and still intentionally sin but simply rely on "being saved" simply doesn't hold any water. I mean sure, people do it, but I don't believe those people really are saved. You're lumping people who 'claim' to be Christian in with true Christians. I think you can tell who the true believers are. Simply claiming to be Christian is different from knowing you have sinned (and will likely sin again) and asking honestly for forgiveness, believing whole-heartedly in Christ, and trying to live your life by the Word of the Bible.

I'm sure Muslims would tell you the same thing about their religion. Do you think terrorists who claim to be Muslim really live their lives according to the Koran? Do you think devout Muslims who do live by the Koran and the principles of Islam would agree that terrorists are good Muslims?

[RushDog]

You are right, Rush. Conviction.
I at one time was much closer to God than I am now.
We go to church often, but not twice a week like we used to.


It sounds like you need a revival. Get down on that alter and pray. Let God know what's on your mind. Brokeness is next to holiness. Sometimes God will break you down, to build you back up again. Alot of times when everything is going right in people's lives, they lose focus on God. Alot of times people don't look up, until they are down. The devil wants us "fat, dumb, & happy" because he knows when we get that way we're not going to do the things we should like praying and going to church. A couple years ago, I decided to go to a revival. The evangelist was a guy named Brady Weldon. He travels around the country, and does revivals. He has a website called Bradyweldon.com. I would suggest ordering one of his cd's or dvd's He is awesome. But anyway, the Holy Spirit hit me like a ton of bricks. I was at the alter, praying, and crying like a baby. It was like a big weight had been lifted. It felt so good lay all my burdens down at the alter. It doesn't really matter how many times a week you go to church. The thing that matters most is your relationship with God. The best thing about praying, is that you can do it anywhere. Well, I owe, I owe, I owe, so it's off to work I go. I'll talk to you later.

[lucy]

You're going to live an everlasting life in Heaven or Hell based on whether or not you believe in what may very well be a fairy tale... and God is going to allow that to happen because he's too busy to prove his existence.
What have we lost in doing this? Nothing. We live a moral life, trying to follow God's word, and this alone brings alot of happiness. God doesn't make us do anything ridiculous, he just asks that we believe. Seems like a simple request with all that he is offering.
Have you ever talked to someone who you just knew was a Christian, without anyone telling you? Did you feel sorry for that person? I doubt it, I'll bet you didn't say to yourself, look how miserable living for Jesus has made them. That does not happen.
The Bible says we are all give a "measure" of faith, if we will allow ourselves to believe that faith will grow and grow.
There's simply too much in the Bible and too much associated with faith that is just... well faith based.
You def seem like a "show it to me" kind of guy......If only for a moment, can't you just allow your heart to open and allow yourself to believe, and pray about these issues, questions that you have?
As AE pointed out, the Bible has stood the test of time, doesnt this alone make you wonder if there is something to this.
We're supposed to believe because we're supposed to... otherwise we go to Hell. Where is that fair or right?
How horrible is this, though?
He offers salvation and eternal life, for your faith. He does not ask alot, from us when you think about it. He is a good and gracious God, noone has ever offered me such a gift.

[lucy]

It sounds like you need a revival. Get down on that alter and pray. Let God know what's on your mind. Brokeness is next to holiness. Sometimes God will break you down, to build you back up again. Alot of times when everything is going right in people's lives, they lose focus on God. Alot of times people don't look up, until they are down. The devil wants us "fat, dumb, & happy" because he knows when we get that way we're not going to do the things we should like praying and going to church. A couple years ago, I decided to go to a revival. The evangelist was a guy named Brady Weldon. He travels around the country, and does revivals. He has a website called Bradyweldon.com. I would suggest ordering one of his cd's or dvd's He is awesome. But anyway, the Holy Spirit hit me like a ton of bricks. I was at the alter, praying, and crying like a baby. It was like a big weight had been lifted. It felt so good lay all my burdens down at the alter. It doesn't really matter how many times a week you go to church. The thing that matters most is your relationship with God. The best thing about praying, is that you can do it anywhere. Well, I owe, I owe, I owe, so it's off to work I go. I'll talk to you later.
Oh Rush, you made me cry, happy tears!!!! Thank YOU!!
Good Morning to you and have a nice day at work........I am off to my day as well!!

[Kat4Ever]

He does not ask alot, from us when you think about it. He is a good and gracious God, noone has ever offered me such a gift.

And yet you're not curious why he won't just show himself.

He asks everything of you while offering nothing in return unless you believe and have complete faith.

So you can call that a test of faith all you want... however it seems to me that IF He really cared... then He would make himself known... and then everyone at that point that didn't believe would obviously go one way... while the others would go up.

Why do you honestly suppose that he can't or won't prove his existence... other than 2000 years ago allegedly.

And if you believe that Jesus did walk the Earth and was the son of God... then why wouldn't he do something like that again? What was so special about 2000 years ago that he would do the exact same thing I'm asking him to do now.. but he won't do.

[Kat4Ever]

Have you ever talked to someone who you just knew was a Christian, without anyone telling you? Did you feel sorry for that person? I doubt it, I'll bet you didn't say to yourself, look how miserable living for Jesus has made them. That does not happen.

Do you honestly think that's true... that every Christian is entirely happy?

Because I don't.

I've actually known quite a few that were pretty unhappy... or at least always on edge. Or always thinking that God would take care of everything for them... so in fact they rarely took care of themselves.

I have a good friend in fact that's really down on himself right now. He's divorced with 2 kids, 1 is 18 and has gone back and forth from my friend and his ex (he's a real mess also)... lost his job a while back and had a hard time finding another one.

I make sure he's got groceries for his kids and buy him dinner all the time when we go out and basically do everything I can to help him.

The fact is this is absolutely one of the nicest guys I've ever met... and extremely loyal to God. He prays all the time... he doesn't ask for much.. just a chance to start over... meet a nice woman... that his kid gets his life together... he get it together financially (not to get rich but just get on track)....

but he's miserable. His prayers don't get answered... he's having a real hard time with his life and questioning everything (but his faith amazingly).

But at least he's not one of those guys that thinks that God owes him something... he's trying to make things better, they're just not... at least not yet.

I just refuse to believe that God picks and chooses who gets their prayers answered or a good life (since it never matters how good you are or bad you are... everyone has bad luck and good luck)... or that God even cares one way or the other.

How can he honestly when bad things happen to good people.. and good things happen to bad people.

I don't see this as being beyond comprehension.

There's too many questions for there to be easy answers.

[lizzyj]

God revealed himself thousands of years ago and many followed him and many didn't. It would be the same today.

And since we are living by faith, we need not see him. But if you really want know him, he will be with you in spirit. You can feel his presents, and doubt no more.

[lucy]

I make sure he's got groceries for his kids and buy him dinner all the time when we go out and basically do everything I can to help him.
Have I ever told you, I love you!!!!!!!!!
I know that not all Christians are happy, but not all unbelievers that "go with the flow" are happy.
We all have our problems and life stressors, we just have to stand strong and
know that better times are coming.

[lizzyj]

I think what Lucy is trying to say is, in spite of whatever a Christian is going thru, they can have Gods joy in their heart.

[lizzyj]

You're so sweet Lucy!

I can't help but love you

[lucy]

Shark Boy and Lava Girl.....
My son Loves that Movie!!!!!!!
Yes. Us girls were home alone, and that is what she wanted to watch,
both of my children like this movie
Also, thanks again for your e-mail....very nice.

[lizzyj]

I was homeless, with no money, know one to take care of me, no husband, no family of my own. And God spoke to me and told me that if I would summit myself to him he would give me my hearts desire.

God said he knew what I've wanted since I was a little girl, and those things would be mine. God said before when I would get something, man would come and take it from me, man would tear it down , but this time he was giving it to me, and what he gives me no man can tear down, know one can take it away from me.

So I submitted myself to him and now have joy beyond my wildest dreams. I have what I wanted since I was a little girl, I have a family, a beautiful home, and a wonderful husband, and know one can take it from me, and I am happy.

Bad things try to attack me, and things can look so bad, but with Gods promise, I know that know one will take my happiness.

I praise him for this.

I wish this for everyone here.

[AbsentElement]

He asks everything of you while offering nothing in return unless you believe and have complete faith.Should we expect something in return? What would that say about our true character?

So you can call that a test of faith all you want... however it seems to me that IF He really cared... then He would make himself known... and then everyone at that point that didn't believe would obviously go one way... while the others would go up.

Why do you honestly suppose that he can't or won't prove his existence... other than 2000 years ago allegedly.Does it really matter? There would still be non-believers. Again, how do you suppose He would prove His existence, and if He tried, would you believe it was Him?

And if you believe that Jesus did walk the Earth and was the son of God... then why wouldn't he do something like that again? What was so special about 2000 years ago that he would do the exact same thing I'm asking him to do now.. but he won't do.Again, if He did, why would you believe it? How would you know it was Him?

[TaylorHicksRocks]

I was homeless, with no money, know one to take care of me, no husband, no family of my own. And God spoke to me and told me that if I would summit myself to him he would give me my hearts desire.

God said he knew what I've wanted since I was a little girl, and those things would be mine. God said before when I would get something, man would come and take it from me, man would tear it down , but this time he was giving it to me, and what he gives me no man can tear down, know one can take it away from me.

So I submitted myself to him and now have joy beyond my wildest dreams. I have what I wanted since I was a little girl, I have a family, a beautiful home, and a wonderful husband, and know one can take it from me, and I am happy.

Bad things try to attack me, and things can look so bad, but with Gods promise, I know that know one will take my happiness.

I praise him for this.

I wish this for everyone here.


Your story right there shows so much faith! God Bless You Lizzy!!! I prayed for a man just like my husband and I did get him even if he was taken after 11 years, I am soooo grateful for those years. It is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all. I was also blessed with a wonderful son..He is my number one priority right now! In Fact we just got back from an appontment from this summers tragedy. The Dr. said he is doing very well considering. It is amazing what a little faith will get you! I felt like I was about to lose it but my connection feels stronger and stronger every day. I never stopped praying at night every night. Also during the day when I felt a need........

[aztecgoods]

Kat4Ever and Absent E

The way I look at it is it better be all true for if it ain't whats the alternative, we die and that's it, eternal nothingness? And as for Jesus actually existing on the Earth there are lots of independent Roman historians and others that document it as well, its not just the Bible. The way I look at it its pretty much our only hope. Unless you are ok with dieing and the mere 60-90 years spent on this Earth is good enough for an existence.

Another way to look at it is similar to some of the things I put in the other post, we as humans are probably a pretty low lifeform, very fragile, weak, stupid, not much intelligence (Speaking on a universal level) maybe its all a chance to go somewhere better if we pass the tests while here taking up a human life. The life as a human hopefully is just an initial test for better or worse things to come. There's not much of an alternative except for the whole you die and thats it scene.

[Kat4Ever]

I know that not all Christians are happy, but not all unbelievers that "go with the flow" are happy.

I think it's safe to say that neither faith nor lack of faith makes you happy or unhappy... but it's your circumstances in life that do that.

The one thing about having faith is 'knowing' that in the end it will be better.

And personally I think that's one of the reasons why people have faith is that they can't handle or don't want to handle real life and it gives you strength to think that no matter what comes at you in life... in the end it's all going to be better.

Unfortunately though for some it's also a reason to not 'live' life and when things go bad just to get on bended knee and think that God will or should take care of you.

I personally also have a hard time thinking that's what God wants.

[Kat4Ever]

I was homeless, with no money, know one to take care of me, no husband, no family of my own. And God spoke to me and told me that if I would summit myself to him he would give me my hearts desire.

God said he knew what I've wanted since I was a little girl, and those things would be mine. God said before when I would get something, man would come and take it from me, man would tear it down , but this time he was giving it to me, and what he gives me no man can tear down, know one can take it away from me.

So I submitted myself to him and now have joy beyond my wildest dreams. I have what I wanted since I was a little girl, I have a family, a beautiful home, and a wonderful husband, and know one can take it from me, and I am happy.

Bad things try to attack me, and things can look so bad, but with Gods promise, I know that know one will take my happiness.

I praise him for this.

I wish this for everyone here.

You're going to think this is an attack but it's not.

However I have a hard time with what you've said because it seems as though for some reason YOUR prayers have been answered while you know that many other people (including my friend) pray for the same thing and will never get theirs answered... or at least haven't yet.

I'm sorry.. but things happen. And they'll happen whether you pray for them or don't pray for them.

It's just very convenient when you pray for something and THEN it happens to witness for God.

But what happens if you lived your life and never had a prayer answered.. which would honestly be pretty difficult if you prayed for everything your whole life... but you get the idea.

Would you then chastise God because your prayers weren't answered? No you wouldn't because you'd still have your faith.

I compare it to a guy in baseball coming to the plate and praying to God that he gets a hit... well the best in baseball only hit the ball 3 out of 10 times... so 3 times his prayer gets answered while 7 times it doesn't?

Not really good odds if you ask me.

It's just amazing to me that people will spend so much time praying for things to happen... and when they finally do they give all praise to God... but while they're not... they're just having faith they will.

I go back to my original assertion that it makes no difference what you pray for... because unless you truly believe that God just picks and chooses prayers to answer or not answer... then it's just obvious that no prayers are.

And if you think prayers are answered then why aren't they answered for all 'true' believers?

[Kat4Ever]

Does it really matter? There would still be non-believers. Again, how do you suppose He would prove His existence, and if He tried, would you believe it was Him?

If God showed himself to be true right now.. to every living human being in the world and there were still non-believers... I'd truly feel sorry for them.

And I would think it would be VERY simple for him to prove himself God... if he truly was God.

And think about this... this is the information age (unlike 2000 years ago)... he could get 'documented' these days and forever for the future as well.

Put out a DVD or something... go mass media... :)

I honestly just don't understand why people don't question why he wouldn't do that.

I go back to what I said.

IF God cared.. IF He truly wanted people saved.. IF He truly had the power.. IF He truly loved 'His' creation........

Why would He allow the world to be as it is now... factioned between non-believers and believers.. and then also factioned between faiths as well.

So who's right? Jews? Protestants? Catholics? Baptists? Mormons? Hindus? Muslims? The First Assembly of God? Etc, Etc, Etc....

Well they all think they are.

[aztecgoods]

It may be the case that he feels he has gotten it out there with the Bible and with Jesus being here back 2000 years ago and that's enough for us worthless humans. We are probably lucky to get what we have considering that we are pretty much a worthless creature. If you look back on world history its extremely ugly with all the wars, mass killings, the way humans treat others. Of course there are exceptions to the rule and there are lots of humans that are good creatures, maybe that's what he's looking for.

In search of a few good humans. Kind of like the Marine Corp thing.

[AbsentElement]

If God showed himself to be true right now.. to every living human being in the world and there were still non-believers... I'd truly feel sorry for them.Me too, but there certainly would be non-believers. A lot of people don't even believe what they see with their own eyes.

And I would think it would be VERY simple for him to prove himself God... if he truly was God.I would think it would be too. But then what would be the point in asking us to have faith?


I honestly just don't understand why people don't question why he wouldn't do that.

I go back to what I said.

IF God cared.. IF He truly wanted people saved.. IF He truly had the power.. IF He truly loved 'His' creation........

Why would He allow the world to be as it is now... factioned between non-believers and believers.. and then also factioned between faiths as well.
To answer the first question, some people do question it. Others do not because they believe in the teachings (not necessary the literal stories) of the Bible, and the Bible tells us we should not question God's existence, His works, etc. So, again, it comes down to whether or not you believe the Bible.

To answer the second question, it's not a matter of whether he cares or whether or not he has the power. It's because He gave us the gift of free will. If He controlled everything on Earth to prevent it from being the way it is now, that wouldn't be free will.

[lucy]

Unfortunately though for some it's also a reason to not 'live' life
Do you think I am missing out on something?

[Kat4Ever]

Do you think I am missing out on something?

Yeah, me!

Oh wait... ummmm... no you're not.

[lucy]

Yeah, me!

Oh wait... ummmm... no you're not.

LOL, you might be right! or wrong....

(I will delete this one quickly) hee hee

[Kat4Ever]

If He controlled everything on Earth to prevent it from being the way it is now, that wouldn't be free will.

I don't get the free will thing.

He created us. He wants us to be happy. He wants us to have an everlasting life.

But at the same time He just hides away and hopes that we have faith enough to belive in him... while not showing himself EXCEPT for 2000 years ago.. at a time when man was first getting on his feet.

Yet in all the time since then... all the wars... all the diseases... all the murders...

in all the time that as Aztec puts it society has done nothing but basically gone downhill....

in all that time he's relied on 'faith'?

What an interesting supposition.

It just seems more to me that either He really doesn't exist... or that as He looks down at his creation today it's more like what's his face from that TV show long ago that said 'Did I do that?" in that disturbing voice.

Urkel? Or something like that.

And if that's the case then it would make more sense to hide away and just want to help those that do believe... while distancing yourself from those that don't.

[lucy]

I don't get the free will thing.

He wants us to decide for ourselves. Are we going to have the faith to believe or not.
Do you ever wonder why you are so curious? Maybe he has something out there for you.

[Kat4Ever]

Do you ever wonder why you are so curious? Maybe he has something out there for you.

Either that or I'm just very curious and like to learn and think about things.

[lucy]

I did not say that very well, I was doing to many things at once. Sorry.

[lizzyj]

lizzyj says.....K4E, I have the best tasting cake at my house

K4E says.....Really? what makes you think your is better than everybody Else's?

lizzyj says....I know its better, it's made from real ingredients, nothing artificial about it

K4E says....Well I've heard that before, everyone thinks theirs is the best

lizzyj says....why don't you have a slice and decide for yourself, if you don't like it you don't have to eat it.

K4E says.......

[RushDog]

Can I have some cake?

[lizzyj]

Can I have some cake?


Absolutely, but it might not be as sweet as you :p

[Kat4Ever]

K4E says.......

I like apple pie better.....

just sayin'.

[lizzyj]

I like apple pie better.....

just sayin'.


That is so weird, When I thought about writing that post to you, I was going to say apple pie! :eek:

[RushDog]

That is so weird, When I thought about writing that post to you, I was going to say apple pie! :eek:

Wow! How uncanny! :rolleyes:

[lizzyj]

smarty pants!

[RushDog]

BTW to anyone reading, I make a great apple pie!

So do I. I use those granny smith apples, mixed with a little orange juice, cinnamon, flour, and sugar, and the filling tastes soooo good.

[lucy]

I'll bet that is good Rush. How long did you "chef"?

[RushDog]

I'll bet that is good Rush. How long did you "chef"?

I've been cooking professionally of and on for about 20 years. I'm working at Olive Garden right now on the saute side. It's sooo fun!

[lucy]

Oh, I do remember you saying that now! I love the Olive Garden. My favorite dish is the Chicken Parmesan!!!
I also love the Black Tie Mousse Pie.........the best......but very filling, I can't eat it all!!

[RushDog]

Oh, I do remember you saying that now! I love the Olive Garden. My favorite dish is the Chicken Parmesan!!!
I also love the Black Tie Mousse Pie.........the best......but very filling, I can't eat it all!!

Yes, it's very good. If you like chicken, I also suggest the Chicken Giardino, the Chicken Vino Bianco, and the Garlic Herb Chicken con Broccoli. And of course, the Chicken Alfredo.
Very tasty! :boldred:

[lucy]

I am not sure what the Vino Bianco is.
I pretty much am a boring eater, because I am picky about what I like.
BUT I think the next time I go I will try the GH Chicken con Broccoli, at your suggestion!
I'll tell everyone "Rushdog says this is good!!" hee hee

[RushDog]

I am not sure what the Vino Bianco is.
I pretty much am a boring eater, because I am picky about what I like.
BUT I think the next time I go I will try the GH Chicken con Broccoli, at your suggestion!
I'll tell everyone "Rushdog says this is good!!" hee hee

The Chicken Vino Bianco is 2 marinated chicken breasts sauteed in white wine and garlic butter sauce, with mushrooms, tomatoes, and onions over linguini.

[lucy]

So who's right? Jews? Protestants? Catholics? Baptists? Mormons? Hindus? Muslims? The First Assembly of God? Etc, Etc, Etc....
Well they all think they are.
What do you all think about this?
I realize that, basically, children grow up and follow the religion of their parents and alot of times don't question the possible differences in religion.

I think that even though some of the specifics change, if they have asked Jesus into their hearts they will go to heaven.

[lucy]

The Chicken Vino Bianco is 2 marinated chicken breasts sauteed in white wine and garlic butter sauce, with mushrooms, tomatoes, and onions over linguini.

I think the Chicken con Broccoli is the best choice for me, hee hee, NO MUSHROOMS......(or does it:confused: )

[RushDog]

What do you all think about this?
I realize that, basically, children grow up and follow the religion of their parents and alot of times don't question the possible differences in religion.

I think that even though some of the specifics change, if they have asked Jesus into their hearts they will go to heaven.

Well, when Jesus does come back, they will all bow down to him. God loves the Jews. They are a very blessed people. Most of them have good careers and wealth. However, they are also cursed. This is because they are disobedient and do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah. This is why they are so ostracized and scrutinized. This is why the Holocaust happened, and this is why Israel has the struggles it has. Israel has a certain arrogance about it because it thinks it can control it's future without Christ.

[RushDog]

I think the Chicken con Broccoli is the best choice for me, hee hee, NO MUSHROOMS......(or does it:confused: )

Nope! No mushrooms.

[AbsentElement]

Yes, it's very good. If you like chicken, I also suggest the Chicken Giardino, the Chicken Vino Bianco, and the Garlic Herb Chicken con Broccoli. And of course, the Chicken Alfredo.
Very tasty! :boldred:
Does OG still have parmesan crusted chicken? That was my fav when I worked there.

[lucy]

Well, when Jesus does come back, they will all bow down to him. God loves the Jews. They are a very blessed people. Most of them have good careers and wealth. However, they are also cursed. This is because they are disobedient and do not recognize Jesus as the Messiah. This is why they are so ostracized and scrutinized. This is why the Holocaust happened, and this is why Israel has the struggles it has. Israel has a certain arrogance about it because it thinks it can control it's future without Christ.

It's sickening, (while looking over some of the posts here on Idolme, I have found this is a popular word, hee hee) to see how the Holocaust, could be even in the same sentence as Jesus.
Like with the terrorist of today, I don't understand how people can serve a God they believe wants them to cause so much pain and suffering for others, and even for themselves.
I saw an interview with Jill Carroll, and she was saying how one of the women, who had small children and was pregnant, was telling her how she wanted to be a suicide bomber.
It really is unreal.

[lucy]

Does OG still have parmesan crusted chicken? That was my fav when I worked there.

If I worked at the Olive Garden, I would probably look like an olive. :mecry:
I really do like it.
We don't have an OG in our city, but one in a neighboring city. I do always order the Chicken Parmesan, well once I did get the "Tour of Italy". I am too picky of an eater!
The salads are yummy too!!!

[lucy]

Your story right there shows so much faith! God Bless You Lizzy!!! I prayed for a man just like my husband and I did get him even if he was taken after 11 years, I am soooo grateful for those years. It is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all. I was also blessed with a wonderful son..He is my number one priority right now! In Fact we just got back from an appontment from this summers tragedy. The Dr. said he is doing very well considering. It is amazing what a little faith will get you! I felt like I was about to lose it but my connection feels stronger and stronger every day. I never stopped praying at night every night. Also during the day when I felt a need........
I am glad things are going well for you two!
I am happy you had such a great husband, I know you must miss him more than words can say!!!!!

[Kat4Ever]

This is why the Holocaust happened

I suppose you also believe Katrina happened because of gays?

That's a pretty harsh statement there dude.

[Feisty Kitty]

Wow, I have missed a lot! The subject of Noah's Ark came up and I wasn't even around. I will admit that I have not read the entire thread, because I don't have time to catch up on 17 pages, but I tried to bounce around and get the general idea. Kat4Ever, you asked how that story was possible. Well, I have a theory.

Have you ever studied mythogy? Classical mythology, the religious beliefs of the Ancient Greeks and Romans, are still extremely relevant today, because they help we modern day people to understand that culture upon which our own is loosly based. If one studies these myths, one finds that within the mythological, archetypal stories, some history does reside. Yet, that history is also surrounded by religious belief. If you read Homer's Iliad, you read about the Trojan War, which DID happen, but you get the supernatural aspects that probably did not happen. If you read, The Epic of Gilgamesh, you get a story about a flood, from a different part of the same continent. There are other accounts of a great flood in many different histories from many different civilizations in that same time period, in that same region. I do believe there was a flood, I just don't believe that it occured EXACTLY how the Bible says it did.
What we have to go on, as far as historical documentation from the early world, is SOOOOOO tied into the religious beliefs of each civilization's documentation, and each account differs SOOOO much from the next one, that a thinking person has to realize that there are most probably clouded facts in these accounts. Was there a flood? Most probably, considering that there are so many accounts of a great flood in the same general area, in the same time period. Did it wipe out everyone but Noah? Probably not, considering that there are accounts written by people who could not have descended from him. Did this flood cover the entire globe? Probably not, considering that you find no accounts of this flood by indiginous peoples in other, far removed parts of the globe, such as Australia, the Americas, most of Asia. And you still have Marsupials and Pandas and many other creature that ONLY reside in these areas. Where one does find these accounts is in the Middle East (Mesopotamia), the northern part of Africa (Egypt), South Eastern Europe (Greece, Turkey).

So, I do believe that there was a flood, I do believe that there was a man named Noah, I do believe that there very well could have been an ark, and the reason we never found it was that it simply disintegrated. 40 days and nights of waterlogging can be hell on wood, not to mention thousands of years of rot and weathering. I do not believe that it went down exactly as the Bible says it did, because science and common sense, and just observing tell me differently. Much of what the Bible professes to be "miraculous happenings" can be explained by science.

People are so very entitled to believe whatever they wish. We are so lucky to have that freedom. Yet, basing one's total belief on a book that has been proven to be partly mythology frightens me (Genesis is so full of cotradictions, very few traceable facts, while Exodus contains many documented facts, and scientist even have uncovered environmental reasons for most of the plagues). I love the idea of faith, but with it should come reason. The two go hand in hand. Let us remember that the greatest questioner of religion and faith was Jesus Christ. He himself challenged the status quo, and was killed as a heretic and a political usurper. I believe that we as humans are called to question everything, that is why God gave us minds with which to do it. I am a big Jesus fan, and I question and challenge all the time.

I hope this helped. Now, everyone can go ahead and stone me. But remember, he who is without sin should be the one to cast the first stone. Knock yourselves, (and me, pun intended) out!

[lucy]

Now, everyone can go ahead and stone me. But remember, he who is without sin should be the one to cast the first stone. Knock yourselves, (and me, pun intended) out!

LOL Actually, I think the posts on this thread have been quite amicable.
I do agree that the bible uses some metaphors and symbolism, but do believe it is the "word of God".
I enjoy reading the bible to find answers to questions like K4E proposed.

[Feisty Kitty]

I totally agree that we should look to the Bible for answers, but we simply cannot find ALL of the answers to EVERYTHING in the Bible. Spiritually, believers can find most. Yet, they cannot find everything there, and those that limit their understanding will never truly understand. There is too much in the world that the Bible simply fails to cover, and though many may strtch and twist it to meet their questions, some answers simply aren't there. I greatly respect faith, but I do not condone blind faith. By that I do not mean believing in that which we cannot see, but rather believing without observation of the world, asking hard questions and expecting that not all of those questions can be answered. If they could, we wouldn't even need faith in the first place.

[lucy]

I think some doubts and questions are normal. I don't think this angers God.
We need to admit these doubts and questions to ourselves and to God and begin looking for some answers.
Whether or not you are a Christian, you will never have complete answers to all of life's questions.
Don't allow natural questions to interfere with your ability to try and communicate with God.

I do agree, FK with what you are saying. Here is a quote of what I had posted earlier, (I read where you said you hadn't read 17 pages, I would not have either, lol)
All of the answers are not there, no matter where you look, either to the bible nor to science.
You are SO right about faith, if we could see it, it wouldn't be faith!
Just curious, what do you teach, FK?

[TaylorHicksRocks]

I do agree, FK with what you are saying. Here is a quote of what I had posted earlier, (I read where you said you hadn't read 17 pages, I would not have either, lol)
All of the answers are not there, no matter where you look, either to the bible nor to science.
You are SO right about faith, if we could see it, it wouldn't be faith!
Just curious, what do you teach, FK?

We went to Church today for the 1st time since our summer tragedy.......and we both felt the Holy Spirit! My son and I...it was a wonderful experience....the people were wonderful! So Understanding! Jonathon said he felt great! I cried......I just could not help my self. Some of you may want to check you your PM's so that you kanow what I am talking about.......we are still waiting for windows. It has been cold. But we are suypposed to get warm later in the week. I can't wait until next week! God does work wonders.....:)

[lucy]

Glad things are getting back on track for you, THR. You deserve some normalcy.

[X1TX]

I totally agree that we should look to the Bible for answers, but we simply cannot find ALL of the answers to EVERYTHING in the Bible. Spiritually, believers can find most. Yet, they cannot find everything there, and those that limit their understanding will never truly understand. There is too much in the world that the Bible simply fails to cover, and though many may strtch and twist it to meet their questions, some answers simply aren't there. I greatly respect faith, but I do not condone blind faith. By that I do not mean believing in that which we cannot see, but rather believing without observation of the world, asking hard questions and expecting that not all of those questions can be answered. If they could, we wouldn't even need faith in the first place.

Agree that we should look to scripture for answers. Also agree that the answer to everything isn't in there. Especially at first glance. Some answers can't be found because it's a matter that has no eternal significance. Other things are just mysteries and we won't know the answer this side of eternity. And the Bible does not call for 'blind' faith. To the contrary, it says to "Love the Lord with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and all your strength". Proverbs is full of calls to pursue wisdom. Seek truth and you will find it.

[X1TX]

Now, everyone can go ahead and stone me. But remember, he who is without sin should be the one to cast the first stone. Knock yourselves, (and me, pun intended) out!

"Everybody must get stoned" - Bob Dylan.........(pun intended)

[RushDog]

Much of what the Bible professes to be "miraculous happenings" can be explained by science.



Okay, how would explain Jesus rising from the dead after 3 days? Or Jesus bringing Lazarus back to life? I mean, if this was possible through science, don't you think that would be common practice now?

[X1TX]

People are so very entitled to believe whatever they wish. We are so lucky to have that freedom. Yet, basing one's total belief on a book that has been proven to be partly mythology frightens me (Genesis is so full of cotradictions, very few traceable facts, while Exodus contains many documented facts, and scientist even have uncovered environmental reasons for most of the plagues). I love the idea of faith, but with it should come reason. The two go hand in hand. Let us remember that the greatest questioner of religion and faith was Jesus Christ. He himself challenged the status quo, and was killed as a heretic and a political usurper. I believe that we as humans are called to question everything, that is why God gave us minds with which to do it. I am a big Jesus fan, and I question and challenge all the time.


I'm not aware of any 'contradictions' in Genesis. But I do agree that we should engage our brains when we approach our faith.

And Jesus questioned religion, he did not question faith. There is a difference.

[Feisty Kitty]

Okay, how would explain Jesus rising from the dead after 3 days? Or Jesus bringing Lazarus back to life? I mean, if this was possible through science, don't you think that would be common practice now?

Actually, there are many theories about the resurrection, and none of them center around science, but rather around cultural myths that were attributed to Jesus. When I refered to science being able to explain miracles, I was refering to the nature related miracles, such as the plagues, parting of the red sea, etc. I don't have time to go into it in detail right now, but I will discuss it with you next weekend if you wish.

[Feisty Kitty]

I'm not aware of any 'contradictions' in Genesis. But I do agree that we should engage our brains when we approach our faith.

And Jesus questioned religion, he did not question faith. There is a difference.

If you read the book of Genesis again, you will see all of the contradictions. And Jesus did question faith, just not faith in his father.

[RushDog]

Actually, there are many theories about the resurrection, and none of them center around science, but rather around cultural myths that were attributed to Jesus.

Oh, okay. You're saying that it's just myth, and that it never really happened. I getcha. :rolleyes:

[lucy]

If you read the book of Genesis again, you will see all of the contradictions.

I would like to know any specific contradictions, that you can think of, so that I could look these up.
I am not asking to be argumentative, but would really like to know your point of view.

[X1TX]

If you read the book of Genesis again, you will see all of the contradictions. And Jesus did question faith, just not faith in his father.

Read Genesis several times. If you apply textual criticism and read it in light of the fact that the authors were Hebrews, it's not 'contradictory'. Some of it is due to Hebrew block logic. Also, Genesis was not written from the viewpoint of a scientist, it was written from the viewpoint of a man of faith (either Moses or possibly Baruch).

[RushDog]

This simple religious discussion has become so un-simple.

[TaylorHicksRocks]

This simple religious discussion has become so un-simple.

Oh boy isn't that the truth!!!!:)

[lizzyj]

Wow, I have missed a lot! The subject of Noah's Ark came up and I wasn't even around. I will admit that I have not read the entire thread, because I don't have time to catch up on 17 pages, but I tried to bounce around and get the general idea. Kat4Ever, you asked how that story was possible. Well, I have a theory.

Have you ever studied mythogy? Classical mythology, the religious beliefs of the Ancient Greeks and Romans, are still extremely relevant today, because they help we modern day people to understand that culture upon which our own is loosly based. If one studies these myths, one finds that within the mythological, archetypal stories, some history does reside. Yet, that history is also surrounded by religious belief. If you read Homer's Iliad, you read about the Trojan War, which DID happen, but you get the supernatural aspects that probably did not happen. If you read, The Epic of Gilgamesh, you get a story about a flood, from a different part of the same continent. There are other accounts of a great flood in many different histories from many different civilizations in that same time period, in that same region. I do believe there was a flood, I just don't believe that it occured EXACTLY how the Bible says it did.
What we have to go on, as far as historical documentation from the early world, is SOOOOOO tied into the religious beliefs of each civilization's documentation, and each account differs SOOOO much from the next one, that a thinking person has to realize that there are most probably clouded facts in these accounts. Was there a flood? Most probably, considering that there are so many accounts of a great flood in the same general area, in the same time period. Did it wipe out everyone but Noah? Probably not, considering that there are accounts written by people who could not have descended from him. Did this flood cover the entire globe? Probably not, considering that you find no accounts of this flood by indiginous peoples in other, far removed parts of the globe, such as Australia, the Americas, most of Asia. And you still have Marsupials and Pandas and many other creature that ONLY reside in these areas. Where one does find these accounts is in the Middle East (Mesopotamia), the northern part of Africa (Egypt), South Eastern Europe (Greece, Turkey).

So, I do believe that there was a flood, I do believe that there was a man named Noah, I do believe that there very well could have been an ark, and the reason we never found it was that it simply disintegrated. 40 days and nights of waterlogging can be hell on wood, not to mention thousands of years of rot and weathering. I do not believe that it went down exactly as the Bible says it did, because science and common sense, and just observing tell me differently. Much of what the Bible professes to be "miraculous happenings" can be explained by science.

People are so very entitled to believe whatever they wish. We are so lucky to have that freedom. Yet, basing one's total belief on a book that has been proven to be partly mythology frightens me (Genesis is so full of cotradictions, very few traceable facts, while Exodus contains many documented facts, and scientist even have uncovered environmental reasons for most of the plagues). I love the idea of faith, but with it should come reason. The two go hand in hand. Let us remember that the greatest questioner of religion and faith was Jesus Christ. He himself challenged the status quo, and was killed as a heretic and a political usurper. I believe that we as humans are called to question everything, that is why God gave us minds with which to do it. I am a big Jesus fan, and I question and challenge all the time.

I hope this helped. Now, everyone can go ahead and stone me. But remember, he who is without sin should be the one to cast the first stone. Knock yourselves, (and me, pun intended) out!

I remember before that you said you are a teacher( I think), I am glad you don't teach religion. I am sure you are very smart in whatever you do teach, but FK, you are soooo uninformed, and I need not ask if you are saved.

Just remember, our Lord commands us to believe all of the bible or nothing in it, you can't pick parts out to believe.

........and I would be frightened NOT to believe the bible.

[RushDog]

I remember before that you said you are a teacher( I think), I am glad you don't teach religion. I am sure you are very smart in whatever you do teach, but FK, you are soooo uninformed, and I need not ask if you are saved.

Just remember, our Lord commands us to believe all of the bible or nothing in it, you can't pick parts out to believe.

........and I would be frightened NOT to believe the bible.

I love you, Lizzy. And, I love your new pic.

[RushDog]

"You lived, you died. You said in three days you would rise. You did, you're alive...."

[lizzyj]

I love you too Rush,

......I'm putting my lipstick on for you.......teetee

[lucy]

I love you, Lizzy. And, I love your new pic.

yea, I love her too but the avatar...not so much!!

(just think I thought it would be you....lol)

[RushDog]

yea, I love her too but the avatar...not so much!! hee hee



Don't be jealous. Have the courage to show your picture and let everybody know how beautiful you are.

[lucy]

That is me.......shouldn't I be in movies?

[RushDog]

I thought that was Madonna! LOL! True Blue, baby, I love you.

[RushDog]

Just remember, our Lord commands us to believe all of the bible or nothing in it, you can't pick parts out to believe.


Yes, the Bible isn't like Burger King...."Have it your way".


"....Hold the pickles, hold the lettuce, special orders don't upset us." Actually, when I was teenager, working at Burger King, special orders did upset me.

[lizzyj]

Now see, I believed your add, and always had it my way.

one cheeseburger with just mayo, large fries, and a coke........hum hum hum

now I'm hungry.

[lucy]

I thought that was Madonna! LOL! True Blue, baby, I love you.

Madonna... Yuck!
Nooooo, I have much more class than that, can't you tell?

[RushDog]

Madonna... Yuck!
Nooooo, I have much more class than that, can't you tell?

Not really. Just kidding!

[RushDog]

Now see, I believed your add, and always had it my way.

one cheeseburger with just mayo, large fries, and a coke........hum hum hum

now I'm hungry.

Well, I didn't mind so much when it was a real cute girl like you. But, if it was some dude, then forget about it.

[lizzyj]

I thought that was Madonna! LOL! True Blue, baby, I love you.


Madonna's skirt would have been shorter and her teetee's would have been pointed like those orange cones used by road workers.:jump1:

[RushDog]

Madonna's skirt would have been shorter and her teetee's would have been pointed like those orange cones used by road workers.:jump1:

You sound like a big fan! "...You may be my lucky star! 'Cause you you shine for me wherever you are..."

What a great song!

[lizzyj]

star light
star bright
first star I've seen tonight

star light
star bright
make everything alright...........yea


shine your heavenly body..............

[RushDog]

star light
star bright
first star I've seen tonight

star light
star bright
make everything alright...........yea


shine your heavenly body..............

Shine it, baby!

[X1TX]

Just remember, our Lord commands us to believe all of the bible or nothing in it, you can't pick parts out to believe.

........and I would be frightened NOT to believe the bible.

Actually, we're commanded to have faith in Him and His promises. The Bible is a tool we can use to get to know Him.

And given the Bible is one of the more significant books in world history, I find it amazing that so many people quote from it, having never read the entire tome. Also, it's not one book, it's a collection of books.

[lizzyj]

He did command us to believe all or nothing, and not to pick and choose. Either you believe all that he says or nothing he says.

If we only believe part, we are calling him and his word a lier.

Deuteronomy ch4, vs 2
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you.

Matthew ch 4 vs 4
It is written, man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Isaiah ch 45 vs 23
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Titus ch 1 vs 9
Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.

[lizzyj]

Also, it's not one book, it's a collection of books.

Yes, and I don't really have one carton of eggs in my refrigerator, I have 12 eggs.

Don't split my hairs, you will mess up my "do". :p

[RushDog]

Yes, and I don't really have one carton of eggs in my refrigerator, I have 12 eggs.

Don't split my hairs, you will mess up my "do". :p


It's not blue, it's light blue.

[X1TX]

star light
star bright
first star I've seen tonight

star light
star bright
make everything alright...........yea


shine your heavenly body..............

Shine your star
No matter who you are
Shine it bright to see
What you can truly be

[X1TX]

Don't split my hairs, you will mess up my "do". :p

You have something against a 'fro'?
Besides, guys don't worry about split hairs............

[lizzyj]

You have something against a 'fro'?
Besides, guys don't worry about split hairs............


Don't get wrong, theres nothing better than a good "fro", I was just going for that silky look.


Your so cute :jump1:

[aztecgoods]

talk about a thread getting off topic. woohooooo

[lizzyj]

talk about a thread getting off topic. woohooooo


Yea really, some poor soul will click on this topic for some religion advice and what they see is tips on getting silky hair.....sorry.


Now back on topic,

when you are weary
and no place to go
Go to the Word
And let God tell you so

He will not leave you
He'll always be there
even when your stupid enough
to talk about your hair.

[RushDog]

Shine your star
No matter who you are
Shine it bright to see
What you can truly be

Hey, that's Earth, Wind, & Fire! I was wondering why we started talking about afros.

[Kat4Ever]

I was watching TBN last night (flipping channels) and they had this program on called 'Christianity 101'... I stopped to check it out and they were actually having a discussion about why is you were 'shopping' for a religion, that Christianity should be your religion of choice.

Their #1 reason? I'm glad you asked.

Because it is 'testable'.. their word not mine.

They actually said it's the ONLY religion that can be proven. Proven?

They said if you look through history it proves that Jesus lived and was the son of God. They said things like Noah's Ark can be proven (they listed several things, none of this could actually be 'proven').

They also said that Christianity was the most intollerant of religions (another lie)... and that it was 'free' (nice reason to join up but if you believe what most teach you that you 'should' give 10% to the church that doesn't really sound free to me).

All in all it was an interesting program but was basically very slanted (of course I didn't expect any different).

This 'Dr' (of what I don't know) on there claimed that he had travelled the world and studied every major religions on there and that's how he came to believe that nothing could beat Christianity because of all the 'pluses' compared to other religions.

[Kat4Ever]

Okay... another question.

If God is this great and giving and loving God...

why would he create a place like Hell and cast those that don't believe into this 'lake of fire'?

This follows the same thing I've been saying about the things that some of you write about how God is... which isn't in a very good light.

So your basic contention is believe or suffer?

Once again sounds more like a dictatorship of the worst kind than some loving, gracious, giving and omnipresent God.

Why wouldn't it just be believe or never go to Heaven? Believe or suffer a life eternal of never reaching Heaven?

That would be MUCH more believable.

But instead it's believe or go to Hell and suffer eternally.

Tell me how you explain the 'love' behind that?

[aztecgoods]

First off I wouldn't recommend getting any of your info from any TV preacher for many of those if not most are straight up cons (send us your money etc.).

Second of all I'm not sure if you may have heard but no lie, on the news just the other day they had this guy that is supposedly the Christian Indiana Jones or something, went and checked out that site in Iran or whereever it is they think is the real Ark, and it is this remnant (petrified wood) of what looks like the remains of a huge ship, way the heck up on the side of this mountain, that you guessed it supposedly dates back to this time, so go figure that about the Ark story. This is way up high mind you like 15,000 ft or something miles above any "water." This supports the world wide flood theory as well.

Third, ours is not to reason why, ours is to do or die. Or you could look at it another way, "be good or go to hell" could just be the devine equivalent of "don't play in the street" that we would do to a young child.

Also, K4E, no one on here is going to have all the answers to your questions, you may want to try reading the bible a few times and come up with your own. Otherwise you are risking that the right answers be tainted by mere mortals opinion.

Also, there is a theory that hell is not a lake of fire but something worse which is the total seperation from God. I doubt if hell is literally a lake of fire, although maybe there are degrees of hell with this being the worst for possibly the worst offenders like your Hitlers/Stalins etc. There are most probably degrees of hell, in my own personal theory we are already in one.

[X1TX]

I was watching TBN last night .

I'd never believe what I heard on "The Bighair Network". Hank Hanegraaff (The Bible Answer Man) shows them up daily. He refers to it as "The circus calling itself TBN". TBN is a big 'seller' of The Prosperity Gospel, which has absolutely NO basis in scripture. To say it does would mean you would need to eliminate a lot of quotes from Jesus as well as James 1 (among others). Jesus said we would experience trials and troubles. The Prosperity Gospel says that once you say the prayer you're on easy street the rest of your life (so long as your faith is strong enough). Then when a believer runs up on the rocks of real life, some TBN type would tell them it was because their faith wasn't 'strong enough'. TBN is a joke, and not a very funny one at that. Kind of like:

A horse walks into a bar. The bartender says "Why the long face?"

[aztecgoods]

I'd never believe what I heard on "The Bighair Network". TBN is a joke, and not a very funny one at that. Kind of like:

A horse walks into a bar. The bartender says "Why the long face?"

Yep, some of it reminds me of a Saturday Night Live Parody, cept they are for real on that network. (For real as in they are taking themselves serious, in much the same way a con-artist does)

[lucy]

Okay... another question.
If God is this great and giving and loving God...
why would he create a place like Hell and cast those that don't believe into this 'lake of fire'?
This follows the same thing I've been saying about the things that some of you write about how God is... which isn't in a very good light.
So your basic contention is believe or suffer?
Once again sounds more like a dictatorship of the worst kind than some loving, gracious, giving and omnipresent God.
Why wouldn't it just be believe or never go to Heaven? Believe or suffer a life eternal of never reaching Heaven?
That would be MUCH more believable.
But instead it's believe or go to Hell and suffer eternally.
Tell me how you explain the 'love' behind that?
God cannot tolerate sin because his nature is morally perfect, and his anger does erupt against those who persist in sinning.
All people do sin....we have a sinful nature.
And even though people are moral, by God's measurement no one is good enough, until they have united their lives with Christ and then we become good in God's sight.

[RushDog]

Nice pic, Lucy. Is that really you? I thought you were blonde. I had some strange feeling you looked like Sally Struthers or something. I guess I was wrong.

[lucy]

I was watching TBN last night (flipping channels)

I have been "flipping" before too, and saw some "preaching". My real question to myself was, "Wonder who these people fool?"
I will say not all of the programming on TBN is like that...
I think if you look close enough, you can see peoples angle!
One episode had a preacher and his daughter, she kept saying "daaaddy" "daaaddy"........"sickened" me.

[lucy]

Nice pic, Lucy. Is that really you? I thought you were blonde. I had some strange feeling you looked like Sally Struthers or something. I guess I was wrong.

lol The things I'll do for you!!!
It is me, lol.
No, I do promise you I don't look like Sally Struthers......although, my husband loves me.....he don't want "no" Sally Struthers!!

[X1TX]

It's not a case of 'believe or go to hell'. It's more like 'you're headed there, this is the way out of it'.

[lucy]

It's not a case of 'believe or go to hell'. It's more like 'you're headed there, this is the way out of it'.
This is true!!!!!

[Kat4Ever]

If that's you, Lucy... now I'm the one in love.

Is that shallow of me?

[lucy]

You shallow??
Never.

[lizzyj]

To watch a preacher on TV is the same as a church....you have to be careful. You need to either know the word or look up what they are saying to you. It is our job to receive the right doctrine and not fall into a trap.

That being said, a few of the TV preachers are good. Bishop T.D. Jakes at "The Potter's House" is wonderful!

Also Joel Olstein is a very good teacher.

[RushDog]

To watch a preacher on TV is the same as a church....you have to be careful. You need to either know the word or look up what they are saying to you. It is our job to receive the right doctrine and not fall into a trap.

That being said, a few of the TV preachers are good. Bishop T.D. Jakes at "The Potter's House" is wonderful!

Also Joel Olstein is a very good teacher.


That's right. I like T.D. Jakes. My favorite evangelist of all time is Billy Graham.

[lizzyj]

That's right. I like T.D. Jakes. My favorite evangelist of all time is Billy Graham.

It's like we were seperated at birth! :p

[lucy]

Also Joel Olstein is a very good teacher.

I love Joel Osteen!! I read his book, Your Best Life Now.
I think he is an excellent spiritual encourager.

[X1TX]

I love Joel Osteen!! I read his book, Your Best Life Now.
I think he is an excellent spiritual encourager.

Actually, Osteen is a BIG TIME proponent of the Prosperity Gospel. He does have some funky theology. His dad was much better. I much prefer Tony Evans. I could listen to him all day. Though lately I do like a lot of Malcolm Smith.

[X1TX]

To watch a preacher on TV is the same as a church....you have to be careful. You need to either know the word or look up what they are saying to you. It is our job to receive the right doctrine and not fall into a trap.

That being said, a few of the TV preachers are good. Bishop T.D. Jakes at "The Potter's House" is wonderful!

Also Joel Olstein is a very good teacher.

I remember long ago I was watching The Bighair Network with my grandma. I recall someone on there saying "In the Bible it says......(can't recall the actual quote, but some prosperity gospel clap trap)" and she says "That's funny, it's not in the Bible I read!"

I like Jakes a lot. He does have some ideas I disagree with him on, but fall into that real of 'disputable matters' that Paul talks about. He does know scripture no doubt. I do have a lot of issues with Olstein though.

[X1TX]

lol The things I'll do for you!!!
It is me, lol.
No, I do promise you I don't look like Sally Struthers......although, my husband loves me.....he don't want "no" Sally Struthers!!

Really. Tell your avatar to put some more clothes on. That's no way to dress when you're 'talking church'!



(Note: That was sarcasm)

[RushDog]

I remember long ago I was watching The Bighair Network with my grandma. I recall someone on there saying "In the Bible it says......(can't recall the actual quote, but some prosperity gospel clap trap)" and she says "That's funny, it's not in the Bible I read!"

I like Jakes a lot. He does have some ideas I disagree with him on, but fall into that real of 'disputable matters' that Paul talks about. He does know scripture no doubt. I do have a lot of issues with Olstein though.

I don't anything about Olstein. Which type of churches preach prosperity gospel, or "Name it, Claim it"? I know they don't preach in the Southern Baptist Church. They pretty much preach the opposite. If you don't go through any trials and tribulations in your life, then you're one of God's illegitimate children.

[RushDog]

Really. Tell your avatar to put some more clothes on. That's no way to dress when you're 'talking church'!



(Note: That was sarcasm)

Only if you're Pentecostal.:D

[lucy]

Really. Tell your avatar to put some more clothes on. That's no way to dress when you're 'talking church'!
I wasn't really wearing that at the time, but thanks for your interest.


(Note: That was sarcasm)
I've done it better.

[RushDog]

I wasn't really wearing that at the time, but thanks for your interest.



I've done it better.

Are we a little cranky today?

[lucy]

Me cranky? Noooooooo
I am sure he was kidding and only wants me to be me!!!

Just in case.....zzziiiipp
....................mouthpiece engaged
....................goggles donned
Now I'm ready.....hee heeeeeee
:flamethro

[RushDog]

Me cranky? Noooooooo
I am sure he was kidding and only wants me to be me!!!

Just in case.....zzziiiipp
....................mouthpiece engaged
....................goggles donned
Now I'm ready.....hee heeeeeee
:flamethro

I want you to be you, and you can wear whatever you'd like! Come as you are! Don't mind X1. He can be annoying at times, but he means well.

[lizzyj]

Really. Tell your avatar to put some more clothes on. That's no way to dress when you're 'talking church'!



(Note: That was sarcasm)

X1, I'm ashamed! Are you asking Lucy to be a hypocrite?:awink:

I think she looks pretty.

(besides, I think it might be mine and rush's fault she had to post that picture)

[lizzyj]

Actually, Osteen is a BIG TIME proponent of the Prosperity Gospel. He does have some funky theology. His dad was much better. I much prefer Tony Evans. I could listen to him all day. Though lately I do like a lot of Malcolm Smith.

I have never heard of these two, where I can I find them?

[RushDog]

I have never heard of these two, where I can I find them?


http://www.tonyevans.org/

http://www.malcolmsmith.org/home.asp

[lucy]

I want you to be you, and you can wear whatever .

I knew you were a man of my dreams..........

[lucy]

(besides, I think it might be mine and rush's fault she had to post that picture)


well a womans gotta do what a womans gotta do..........
;)

[lucy]

Osteen does give great motivational sermons. That is something we need as a 'human' being.
Hell, Fire and Brimstone is good too, but there is nothing wrong with motivation and a warm heart.

[RushDog]

I don't know anything about any of these evangelists, but IMO, you should follow whoever you like. Don't let anybody dictate to you what evangelist that you should admire. If you like their message, and it brings you closer to God, then so be it. Unless, they want you to start playing with snakes and drinking funky kool-aid, well that's another story. People get caught up in all these different doctrines, and all it does is create walls. The Pentecostals, The Baptists, the Methodists, the Lutherans, the Charasmaniacs, the Presbytarians all have their own little idiosyncracies. But, as long as you know that Jesus Christ died for our sins, and you are you saved through faith, those other things are just deck chairs on the titanic. And, if you want to wear a bikini to church, then that's fine too. I just won't be able to look at you because that would cause me to sin.

[lucy]

I don't know anything about any of these evangelists, but IMO, you should follow whoever you like. Don't let anybody dictate to you what evangelist that you should admire. If you like their message, and it brings you closer to God, then so be it. Unless, they want you to start playing with snakes and drinking funky kool-aid, well that's another story. People get caught up in all these different doctrines, and all it does is create walls. The Pentecostals, The Baptists, the Methodists, the Lutherans, the Charasmaniacs, the Presbytarians all have their own little idiosyncracies. But, as long as you know that Jesus Christ died for our sins, and you are you saved through faith, those other things are just deck chairs on the titanic.

I agree! People create walls not God.

And, if you want to wear a bikini to church, then that's fine too. I just won't be able to look at you because that would cause me to sin.

Well just like with X1TX, maybe you all should be looking at our faces!!
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Kat4Ever]

To watch a preacher on TV is the same as a church....you have to be careful. You need to either know the word or look up what they are saying to you. It is our job to receive the right doctrine and not fall into a trap.

It's interesting to almost say that there are preachers or priests or whomever out there that 'lie' or at least don't spread the real truth. That's part of the reason that I would never go to church.

Why waste your time when you don't know whether to believe what the guy up front is telling you or not?

Does going to church make you a better Christian? I don't think so.

I would think you'd get as much staying at home, studying your Bible and getting closer to God in your way rather than having someone else tell you what you should believe... especially when it might not even be true in the first place.

Well just like with X1TX, maybe you all should be looking at our faces!!

I was.. off and on... you have a beautiful face and the rest of you... well.....

I think I just sinned.

[lucy]

It's interesting to almost say that there are preachers or priests or whomever out there that 'lie' or at least don't spread the real truth. That's part of the reason that I would never go to church.
There are honest people and dishonest people everywhere. It is sad that there will always be someone to take advantage of you, even at church.
Why waste your time when you don't know whether to believe what the guy up front is telling you or not?
It isn't a waste of time.
We put so much effort into choosing the right car, house or job. Why cant we spend more time choosing the right church for us. It's much more of an "investment"
I would think you'd get as much staying at home, studying your Bible and getting closer to God in your way rather than having someone else tell you what you should believe... especially when it might not even be true in the first place.
You can study the bible on your own, but once you hear a person preach the inspired word of God.....It can bring so much to your soul, it truely does help you grow.
I was.. off and on... you have a beautiful face and the rest of you... well.....I think I just sinned.
Just remember to watch my eyes, not my ......

[lucy]

K4E,
Are you really opposed to going to church? If you ever did start a relationship with God....whew...you would be something!!
As much as I think you like to "dig into" things, you would be right there, in the pulpit, telling us all ...........how it is!
LOL
(PS. No, I didn't fall and hit my head)

[RushDog]

The reason you go to church is to praise and worship God, and to hear the word of God. We are put on this earth to remind God of how great he is and to serve him. Another reason is to be in fellowship with other Christians.

[lucy]

Anyone ever watch Charles Stanley?
A bit monotone, but I like him.
I have never heard him preach where he didn't back it up with scripture, and expect you to follow along and read it for yourself.

[lizzyj]

I don't know him. I'll keep my eye out.

[TaylorHicksRocks]

I prefer to go to worship services as well as Bible studies.....

[X1TX]

I've done it better.

True. I have been a little off my game lately..........

[X1TX]

Anyone ever watch Charles Stanley?
A bit monotone, but I like him.
I have never heard him preach where he didn't back it up with scripture, and expect you to follow along and read it for yourself.

His son is just as good but MUCH more animated. Kind of like Charles Stanley on amphetamines. I do have an Andy Stanley DVD at home ("Go Fish") that's pretty good. He's by no means 'monotone'. Also have some Charles Stanley CD's as well. In his early days he would always say "Now watch this" or "Now listen to this" ad nauseum. Some of his Elders talked to him and in his later years he REALLY cut down on it.

[lucy]

True. I have been a little off my game lately..........

I am sure you will be back in the swing of things soon. LOL LOL
We all hit a dry spell........hee hee
9 swings out of 10...a miss
Get back on that horse...

hmmm, I had better stop while I'm ahead....:p